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Bobby Abreu... has won a Gold Glove Award

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Ravenlord
    Runs Created per game. it's the average amount of runs a lineup of 9 of that player would score per game.
    That must be the most useless stat that I have ever heard of....
    I AM ROSTERDAMUS!!!

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Androctus
      That must be the most useless stat that I have ever heard of....
      really? i'm sure you've heard of batting average.
      RIP Dimebag, Mitch, John, & Grey Cat

      AUXILIUM MEUM A DOMINO

      Angel of Death
      Monarch to the kingdom of the dead
      Infamous butcher,
      Angel of Death

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      • #33
        NL top 10 in RC/27

        DLee-10.02
        Pujols-9.45
        Helton-8.97
        Bay-8.38
        Delgado-8.07
        Giles-7.68
        Griffey-7.56
        Cabrera-7.56
        Dunn-7.53
        Berkman-7.53
        Abreu-7.43
        Ensberg-7.41
        RIP Dimebag, Mitch, John, & Grey Cat

        AUXILIUM MEUM A DOMINO

        Angel of Death
        Monarch to the kingdom of the dead
        Infamous butcher,
        Angel of Death

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Ravenlord
          he said to the college baseball player. where did you get PGWH from?
          "Played Game With Heart"
          The Phillies Barstool Lives!

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          • #35
            Originally posted by ed hardiman
            "Played Game With Heart"
            irrelavent when you put up his numbers.
            RIP Dimebag, Mitch, John, & Grey Cat

            AUXILIUM MEUM A DOMINO

            Angel of Death
            Monarch to the kingdom of the dead
            Infamous butcher,
            Angel of Death

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Ravenlord
              irrelavent when you put up his numbers.
              here, here....

              does anyone do 162 of anything with heart every time? does a surgeon perform 162 surgeries with heart all of the time? does a professor teach 162 classes with heart? a lawyer argue 162 cases, a band 162 concerts, etc, etc, etc.... what do they expect of this guy....hopefully his talents are appreciated by his team mates...

              ps I am surprised to see Giles ahead on that list of RC/27

              Great Ball Teams: Tigers '68, Phils '80, Tigers '84

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              • #37
                i was surprised to see Helton that high on the list as well as Giles. i guess that 400+ OBP has more value than i had previously thought.
                Last edited by Ravenlord; 11-08-2005, 06:46 PM.
                RIP Dimebag, Mitch, John, & Grey Cat

                AUXILIUM MEUM A DOMINO

                Angel of Death
                Monarch to the kingdom of the dead
                Infamous butcher,
                Angel of Death

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Ravenlord
                  irrelavent when you put up his numbers.
                  Says who?
                  What did Bill James ever hit?
                  If baseball is so numerically rigid and predictable why is it so hard to win the World Series?
                  Show me one measly quote where anyone in baseball said "We traded for him based on his RC/27."
                  How many players are in the Hall of Fame for "would of, could of, or should of?"
                  My advice is watch Abreu in a dozen games next year and you'll be far less enamored with his "would of" rating.
                  Originally posted by LP fan
                  here, here....does anyone do 162 of anything with heart every time? does a surgeon perform 162 surgeries with heart all of the time? does a professor teach 162 classes with heart? a lawyer argue 162 cases, a band 162 concerts, etc, etc, etc.... what do they expect of this guy....hopefully his talents are appreciated by his team mates...ps I am surprised to see Giles ahead on that list of RC/27
                  LP did you watch the 93 Phillies?
                  They weren't RC/27 guys, the best available ballplayers or even all that likable as human beans but they didn't waste a single game that season.
                  So there's the easiest 162 of something played with heart I can think of and I could rattle off plenty more teams who got to the Series on heart rather than talent.
                  You need guys that give a catcrap about every single pitch if they're just dialing it in like Abreu all you get is meaningless stats.
                  The Phillies Barstool Lives!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Ravenlord
                    really? i'm sure you've heard of batting average.
                    Well duh. BA is at least a more accurate appraisal of a player's hitting accomplishments and/or ability, but even that doesn't tell the whole story. Unless we are cloning Abreu's, in the real world Abreu doesn't hit with Abreu on base and Abreu on deck. And lets consider how many flyballs a whole outfield of Abreu's would let fall in front of them. Sorry, this meaningless trifle is just not an accurate guage of anything.
                    Last edited by Androctus; 11-09-2005, 06:08 AM.
                    I AM ROSTERDAMUS!!!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by ed hardiman
                      So there's the easiest 162 of something played with heart I can think of and I could rattle off plenty more teams who got to the Series on heart rather than talent.
                      .
                      no you can't. if you win, you magically have heart and good chemistry. it's the nature of winning. loosing always generates negative reaction. that's one of the basic principles of sports psychology.
                      RIP Dimebag, Mitch, John, & Grey Cat

                      AUXILIUM MEUM A DOMINO

                      Angel of Death
                      Monarch to the kingdom of the dead
                      Infamous butcher,
                      Angel of Death

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Androctus
                        Well duh. BA is at least a more accurate appraisal of a player's hitting accomplishments and/or ability, but even that doesn't tell the whole story. Unless we are cloning Abreu's, in the real world Abreu doesn't hit with Abreu on base and Abreu on deck. And lets consider how many flyballs a whole outfield of Abreu's would let fall in front of them. Sorry, this meaningless trifle is just not an accurate guage of anything.
                        you obviously don't know what Runs Created is, not that i had expected you'd go and research the point on your own.

                        RC/27 is derived from converting Runs Created into a game average. the Runs Created formula is ((H+BB+HBP-CS-GDP)*(TB+.26(BB-IBB+HBP)+.52(SB+SF+SH)) divided by total plate appearances.

                        RC is has about a 3% margin of error in its accuracy. that margin of error comes from men reaching on errors and team speed, and few other immeasurable athletic skills and luck. but a 2% margin is not large enough to make the metric invalid.

                        RC works because it measures everything the offense (or pitching allowed if you reverse it) did to score runs (ESPN uses the newest version of RC, which the exact formula isn't released, but it includes situational hitting and productive outs and is a 2% margin of error).

                        to get the RC/27 value, you first need his RC value, then you divide RC by the quanity of AB-H+CS+GDP+SF+SH or RC / (AB-H+CS+GDP+SF+SH). take the answer from that and multiply by 27.

                        as far as a lineup of 9 Abreu's goes, it will score a lot of runs. RUNS CREATED DOES NOT MEASURE DEFENSE, RUN PREVENTION IS ENTIRELY DIFFERENT, AND FAR FAR MORE COMPLICATED ANALYSIS.

                        runs created is a predictable value. player performance is a predictable value. is projection 100%? of course not. that's why it's projection. but for established players, you can project quite accurately what they will do next season (except for R and RBI, which are team dependent stats). as with most things, there are some excpetions.

                        If baseball is so numerically rigid and predictable why is it so hard to win the World Series?
                        because the post season is played in short series. ever hear about the law averages? you have to have a large enough grouping for the averages to work, and a 5-game, 7-game, and 7-game series isn't enough games for it to even out.

                        How many players are in the Hall of Fame for "would of, could of, or should of?"
                        not quite sure what you mean, but with the exception of guys in the Hall for their gloves, very very few guys have below league average RC/27.

                        You need guys that give a catcrap about every single pitch if they're just dialing it in like Abreu all you get is meaningless stats.
                        this setence doesn't even make sense...no result is meaningless, and it just so happens, that Abreu is in an elite category in getting non-bad results.

                        and one last thing:
                        can we all agree that a double is better than single?
                        that a triple is better than a double?
                        that a homerun is better than a triple?
                        then why are we going to use a metric that makes all of them the same AND ignores other ways of getting onbase?
                        RIP Dimebag, Mitch, John, & Grey Cat

                        AUXILIUM MEUM A DOMINO

                        Angel of Death
                        Monarch to the kingdom of the dead
                        Infamous butcher,
                        Angel of Death

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Ravenlord
                          you obviously don't know what Runs Created is, not that i had expected you'd go and research the point on your own.
                          I didnt have to, you told me what it was, and by your definition it was:
                          Runs Created per game. it's the average amount of runs a lineup of 9 of that player would score per game.
                          So like I said in other words, this stat (by your definition above) has absolutely no value in accurately evaluating a player except for perhaps in the land of fantasy baseball, where I cannot deny Abreu is definately a keeper. It has zero real world application. Its like saying a football team with 11 Peyton Mannings will score 257.9 points a game

                          but for established players, you can project quite accurately what they will do next season
                          By this the "established" Yankees win the series every year
                          (except for R and RBI, which are team dependent stats).
                          Then it is in fact useless analysis.

                          The pit of statistics, and what they realy mean. With men on and the game on the line, does it matter what Utley's RC/27 was? No. We just know he had a tendency to deliver, the same way folks remember Babe Ruth. What we remember this year about Abreu is that with down by one run with 2 gone in the ninth, we turned off the TV, those who actually followed the team, anyway. Did you get many Philly games over there in Ohio, or are you defending him because he delivered big for your fantasy team again this year?
                          Last edited by Androctus; 11-09-2005, 01:00 PM.
                          I AM ROSTERDAMUS!!!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Androctus
                            Did you get many Philly games over there in Ohio, or are you defending him because he delivered big for your fantasy team again this year?
                            Hit the nail right on the head there Don. Too bad there isn't a stat for determining how many fly balls dropped in front of or behind him that were playable. Or a stat that shows how well he performs in innings 7-9 in tie, one run or two run games with runners on base. Also these statisticians should take into account his large amount of strikeouts.

                            But to appease the stat fans here's some good ones...
                            The Phillies were involved in a tight wild care race for all of September and the few days in October, down to the final game of the year. Check out Abreu's stats when the team needed him the most

                            September OPS= .791
                            Final week of the season OPS= .494

                            I hope he's traded for a reliable starter during the offseason. Next year wherever he goes the fans there will realize he's not some superstar, but a good player who doesn't come through in the most important situations, while the rest of country gushes over his beautiful stats.
                            "For who? For what?" - Ricky Watters

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Androctus
                              I didnt have to, you told me what it was, and by your definition it was:

                              So like I said in other words, this stat (by your definition above) has absolutely no value in accurately evaluating a player except for perhaps in the land of fantasy baseball, where I cannot deny Abreu is definately a keeper. It has zero real world application. Its like saying a football team with 11 Peyton Mannings will score 257.9 points a game

                              By this the "established" Yankees win the series every year
                              Then it is in fact useless analysis.

                              The pit of statistics, and what they realy mean. With men on and the game on the line, does it matter what Utley's RC/27 was? No. We just know he had a tendency to deliver, the same way folks remember Babe Ruth. What we remember this year about Abreu is that with down by one run with 2 gone in the ninth, we turned off the TV, those who actually followed the team, anyway. Did you get many Philly games over there in Ohio, or are you defending him because he delivered big for your fantasy team again this year?
                              You hit all the nails succinctly on the head! All these modern'day stat experts overlook one minor little thing, subjectivity. Ther reference about a team of Peyton manning's scoring 257 points a game is also right on the money.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Ravenlord
                                irrelavent when you put up his numbers.
                                You've got a LOT to learn about sports dude! Baseball in particular. A LOT!

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