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  • #16
    Once more your rebuke of Charlie Manuel is superficial and utterly ignores any other possible factor in his decision. Allow me to try a few. Physical issues have prevented Garcia from pitching well and deep into games, and that must begin happening NOW if the Phillies are to win.
    Perhaps that must begin NOW, but what must begin NOW is not necessarily something that is likely to begin NOW. Since physical issues have prevented Garcia from pitching deep into games, then that was one more reason to pinch hit for Garcia in the 5th inning with the bases loaded and the Phillies down three runs. And that is probably why you agreed with me that Manuel should have pinch hit for him, too.

    Also, using your logic, another thing that must begin happening NOW is that middle relief must start pitching effectively. Therefore, Manuel would have given middle relief an opportunity to start doing so if he had removed Garcia from the game. Would middle relief have done well. Probably not, but that points to another failure in the Phillies' organization that you do not wish to discuss. And it also illustrates what is wrong with the "must begin happening now" logic.


    Manuel might have also been inclined to pinch-hit if he had dependable bullpen, but he does not. (And before you again light into management for not getting more pitching, please count the teams in MLB that DO have adequate bullpen pitching. Hint: You won't need all your fingers.) In addition, Garcia isn't a bad hitter as pitchers go. Whether or not I would have pinch hit for him (I probably would have) is not the issue. There are many ways to play this game. Sometimes they work; sometimes they don't.
    It matters not how many other teams lack adequate bullpen pitching. As a Phillies' fan, I want the Phillies to be better than the other teams, and I will criticize the Phillies when they are mediocre and do not take the steps to rise above mediocrity. And the Phillies have been mediocre or dreadful for a very long time.

    Other factors cost the Phils this game. Baseball is a game of "ifs." If their two best hitters could have only driven in Rollins in the first inning; if the umpire had called that third strike in the ninth inning as he should have; if Ryan Madsen had not walked the batter and then given up two more hits, then Dobbs' three-run homer would have been a game winner. If, if, if.
    If a team has better players, then there will be fewer ifs to contend with. Madson did get squeezed by the umpire, but a better player would have gotten the third out, and the Phillies would have been down only two runs going into the bottom of the 9th.

    . The weakness of every one of your arguments is that you criticize solely with the perfection of hindsight. It's so easy to be the ideal manager once you know what the results would have been. I suspect you've never been in a managerial position. If you are, trust me: Your people are criticizing you. Note how New York is now treating Joe Torre.
    It is not necessary for me to be or have been a manager to criticize Manuel. A fan does not have to be or have been a professional ballplayer to criticize a ballplayer. Fans use hindsight and foresight. Yes, I will criticize Manuel after the fact if what he does proves to be disastrous. But I will also predict that on the basis of what I have experienced of Manuel as a manager that the Phillies will once again not make the playoffs this year. In fact, I predict that the Phillies will never make the playoffs with him managing. We will see if foresight is as good as hindsight.

    By the way, did you note that the D-backs brought in their closer when they were up four runs? What a fool that manager was! What a moron! He should have suddenly switched pitchers even though Valverde had been the only one warming up when the lead was just two runs about a minute before the inning ended. Don't want him to hurt his arm, you know. And then the Phils pounded him! Why didn't the manager know that was going to happen?
    This example works against you. The D-backs' closer should not have been brought in. Yes, he was pounded. Yes, the manager was wrong. Yes, Manuel was wrong to bring in Myers when the Phillies were ahead by 4 runs.
    Last edited by jalbright; 07-03-2007, 08:46 PM. Reason: bickering

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    • #17
      I questioned the decision to let Garcia bat in the 5th as well. If past history was any guide, he would have imploded in the 6th inning anyway. But since Garcia did last 7 innings, I'm ok with letting him hit & pitch two more innings.

      We saw what happened when the bullpen took over in the 8th, Arizona scored more runs so imagine what could have happened if the bullpen got the game in the 6th inning.

      The Phillies just got beat by a better pitcher. Their offense could not get anything going last night. Plus their bullpen let them down again. Those two runs Madsen gave up were crucial & made the difference.

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      • #18
        Considering Garcia ended up going 8 strong innings, 3 runs is not that big of a lead for the Phillies to overcome, why take your pitcher out in the 5th?
        the Phillies aren't going to go over the luxury tax every year , see the New York Yankees for a reason why, its doesn't guarantee a winning season.
        Who are these magnificent bullpen pitchers that the Philliels keep missing, and you keep throwing out there as a gaffe by management?
        Managing by the save rule: In both cases, the Phillies and the Dbacks were up by less than 3 runs to start the 9th, thier offenses put some more runs on in the 9th while the closers were already warming up. Does it make sense to sit your closer down becuase officially he won't get a save, or is it better to go ahead and put your best pitcher out there to win the game, which everyone wants? Its a no brainer, you put your closer out there.
        Last edited by jalbright; 07-03-2007, 08:36 PM. Reason: bickering

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        • #19
          Originally posted by mwb View Post
          I questioned the decision to let Garcia bat in the 5th as well. If past history was any guide, he would have imploded in the 6th inning anyway. But since Garcia did last 7 innings, I'm ok with letting him hit & pitch two more innings.

          We saw what happened when the bullpen took over in the 8th, Arizona scored more runs so imagine what could have happened if the bullpen got the game in the 6th inning.

          The Phillies just got beat by a better pitcher. Their offense could not get anything going last night. Plus their bullpen let them down again. Those two runs Madsen gave up were crucial & made the difference.
          I would be okay with keeping Garcia in the game, too, if it weren't for the fact that the Phils were losing by three. This team's weakness in middle relief forces it to surrender each time it is in a position to rally. So if Garcia remains, the Phillies will probably stay three behind. If Garcia is removed, the Phillies may cut the gap but then fall further behind again when middle relief comes in. What does that add up to? Frustration and a team that is going nowhere,

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Johnny Thinslow View Post
            I would be okay with keeping Garcia in the game, too, if it weren't for the fact that the Phils were losing by three. This team's weakness in middle relief forces it to surrender each time it is in a position to rally. So if Garcia remains, the Phillies will probably stay three behind. If Garcia is removed, the Phillies may cut the gap but then fall further behind again when middle relief comes in. What does that add up to? Frustration and a team that is going nowhere,
            Why do you not think the Phillies could make up 3 runs in 4 innings?

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            • #21
              What about the Phillies bats not being able to get Jroll in to score in the first inning yesterday after a lead off double? The bats were the reason the Phillies lost yesterday, and they pretty much did the exact same thing today in the first inning, although I do not believe the Phillies bats will remain quiet all night tonight.

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