Who are the 100 greatest Phillies?

[TheoBallgame]

I'd like to hear people's opinions on who would make up a list of the 100 greatest Phillies players of all-time.

Let's start with the obvious, I see 35 guys that are sure-fire on the list, who I've counted off below in alphabetical order. I don't think anyone would argue about any of them beloning somewhere on the list of the top 100 Phils. For the other 65 spots, it starts to become harder. I think it could spur some good conversation to start throwing out some names and see what people think.

The "locks":

1. Grover Cleveland Alexander
2. Dick Allen
3. Richie Ashburn
4. Larry Bowa
5. Jim Bunning
6. Johnny Callison
7. Steve Carlton
8. Gavvy Cravath
9. Ed Delahanty
10. Lenny Dykstra
11. Del Ennis
12. Tony Gonzalez
13. Billy Hamilton
14. Granny Hamner
15. Ryan Howard
16. Willie Jones
17. Chuck Klein
18. Fred Luderus
19. Greg Luzinski
20. Garry Maddox
21. Sherry Magee
22. Tug McGraw
23. Robin Roberts
24. Jimmy Rollins
25. Pete Rose
26. Curt Schilling
27. Mike Schmidt
28. Chris Short
29. Curt Simmons
30. Tony Taylor
31. Sam Thompson
32. Chase Utley
33. Eddie Waitkus
34. Pinky Whitney
35. Cy Williams

other players nominated in the thread so far, in no particular order:

36. Elmer Flick
37. Nap Lajoie
38. Scott Rolen
39. Bobby Abreu
40. Roy Thomas
50. Manny Trillo
51. Darren Daulton
52. Don Hurst
53. Dolph Camilli
54. John Kruk
55. Dave Bancroft
56. Bob Boone
57. Jack Clements
58. Mickey Doolan
59. Charlie Ferguson
60. Von Hayes
61. Milke Lieberthal
62. Stan Lopata
63. Al Orth
64. Dode Paskert
65. Eppa Rixey
66. Juan Samuel
67. Andy Seminick
68. Tully Sparks
69. Jack Taylor
70. John Titus
71. Pinky Whitney
72. Cy Williams
73. Lefty O'Doul
74. Bake McBride
75. Charlie Buffington
76. Steve Bedrosian
77. Jim Konstanty
78. Ron Reed
79. Mitch Williams
80. Greg Gross
81. Del Unser

82. Jack Baldschun
83. Dick Bartell
84. Ricky Botallico
85. Kitty Bransfield
86. Pat Burrell
87. Kid Carsey
88. Dan Casey
89. Dave Cash
90. Larry Christenson
91. Lave Cross
92. Clay Dalrymple
93. Spud Davis
94. John Denny
95. Red Dooin
96. Mickey Doolan
97. Bill Duggleby
98. Jim Eisenreich
99. Dick Farrell
100. Barney Friberg
101. Gene Garber
102. Doug Glanville
103. Kid Gleason
104. Bill Hallman
105. Ken Heintzelman
106. Walt Henline
107. Don Hurst
108. Larry Jackson
109. Deron Johnson
110. Otto Knabe
111. Danny Litwhiler
112. Art Mahaffey
113. Gary Matthews
114. Erskine Mayer
115. Tim McCarver
116. Emil Meusel
117. Willie Montanez
118. Earl Moore
119. Johnny Moore
120. Mickey Morandini
121. Terry Mulholland
122. Ron Northey
123. Wiley Piatt
124. Shane Rawley
125. Jimmy Ring
126. Eppa Rixey
127. Cookie Rojas
128. Heinie Sand
129. Jimmy Wilson
130. Rick Wise
131. Russ Whitestone
132. Tuck Turner
133. John Denny
134. Don Carman
135. Kevin Gross
136. Dick Ruthven

[PVNICK]

Elmer Flick and Nap Lajoie jumped to the AL from the Phillies. Roy Thomas was a turn of the century CF, who posted high OBP and runs scored. Would you consider Rolen and Abreu?

[TheoBallgame]

Scott Rolen and Bobby Abreu definitely. The above list isn't even neccesarily a "top 35", but rather 35 guys I figure no one can argue. Roy Thomas is a good bet too, and I doubt we could make a list like this without including Lajoie and Flick, though if we were to rank them 1-100, the challenge would be to consider JUST their years in a Phillie uniform. In modern times, Manny Trillo would be a player like that. And even with guys who spent a lot of years in Philadelphia, like Darren Daulton, but really only had a few outstanding seasons, how would they rank in comparison to someone who had a longer run, but maybe didn't put up as many big numbers.

Then there's the issue of those deadball era pitchers with gaudy win totals...

[PlayJay]

I am reasonably certain that the name of Kim Batiste will not be on the list.

[TheoBallgame]

Some time in the next day I'll throw out about 35 other names and see if there's any opposition. Eventually I'd like to come up with at least 120 names and cut it down to the top 100.

And then, we get to put them in order!

Additions from thread conversation so far:

36. Elmer Flick
37. Nap Lajoie
38. Scott Rolen
39. Bobby Abreu
40. Roy Thomas
50. Manny Trillo
51. Darren Daulton

[AutographCollector]

Mitch "Wild Thing" Williams?

[Steve Jeltz]

And even with guys who spent a lot of years in Philadelphia, like Darren Daulton, but really only had a few outstanding seasons, how would they rank in comparison to someone who had a longer run, but maybe didn't put up as many big numbers.

Then why is Dykstra on the list? With the exception of 1990 and 1993, he was injured most of the time.

I would like to nominate Don Hurst, Dolph Camilli and John Kruk to this list.

[TheoBallgame]

Hurst, Camilli, and Kruk are all top 100 IMO.

Williams I need to think about, there's some other relievers who I think need to get on here before Mitch. He could squeek in to the top 100 though.

52. Don Hurst
53. Dolph Camilli
54. John Kruk

[jalbright]

I didn't want to take the time to go 100 deep, but here's all the guys I could find who are either in the HOF with over 2000 PA as a Phil and/or have over 100 win shares, plus Utley, Rose and Howard. Utley probably has already passed 100 win shares with his play this year. This list is in order of win shares, except for Abreu because I don't know how to split 2006. I have 55 names, and I'd say all 55 belong in the Phils' top 100:

win shares	last	first
467	Schmidt	Mike
305	Delahanty	Ed
289	Ashburn	Richie
284	Magee	Sherry
277	Roberts	Robin
276	Carlton	Steve
238	Alexander	Pete
233	Thomas	Roy
215	Ennis	Del
211	Allen	Dick
209	Callison	Johnny
188	Klein	Chuck
188	Cravath	Gavvy
184	Luzinski	Greg
177	Titus	John 
176	Williams	Cy
166	Thompson	Sam
165	Hamilton	Billy
158	Luderus	Fred
158	Hayes	Von
155	Rollins*	Jimmy
154	Daulton	Darren
151	Bowa	Larry
150	Maddox	Garry
148	Taylor	Tony
145	Gonzalez	Tony
144	Hamner	Granny
142	Ferguson	Charlie
141	Short	Chris
139	Rolen	Scott
133	Clements	Jack
131	Paskert	Dode
130	Dykstra	Lenny
127	Doolan	Mickey
121	Lieberthal	Mike
121	Schilling	Curt
121	Simmons	Curt
118	Orth	Al
115	Bunning	Jim 
113	Jones	Puddin' Head 
113	Whitney	Pinky
111	Flick	Elmer
111	Boone	Bob
110	Sparks	Tully
110	Seminick	Andy
109	Kruk	John
105	Samuel	Juan
104	Rixey	Eppa
104	Lopata	Stan
93	Utley*	Chase
93	LaJoie	Nap
92	Bancroft	Dave
85	Rose	Pete
66	Howard*	Ryan
216**	Abreu	Bobby
		
*	current Phillie	
**	need to deduct 2006 Yankee win shares

[jalbright]

Now the alphabetical listing:

last	first	win shares
Abreu	Bobby	216**
Alexander	Pete	238
Allen	Dick	211
Ashburn	Richie	289
Bancroft	Dave	92
Boone	Bob	111
Bowa	Larry	151
Bunning	Jim 	115
Callison	Johnny	209
Carlton	Steve	276
Clements	Jack	133
Cravath	Gavvy	188
Daulton	Darren	154
Delahanty	Ed	305
Doolan	Mickey	127
Dykstra	Lenny	130
Ennis	Del	215
Ferguson	Charlie	142
Flick	Elmer	111
Gonzalez	Tony	145
Hamilton	Billy	165
Hamner	Granny	144
Hayes	Von	158
Howard*	Ryan	66
Jones	Puddin' Head 	113
Klein	Chuck	188
Kruk	John	109
LaJoie	Nap	93
Lieberthal	Mike	121
Lopata	Stan	104
Luderus	Fred	158
Luzinski	Greg	184
Maddox	Garry	150
Magee	Sherry	284
Orth	Al	118
Paskert	Dode	131
Rixey	Eppa	104
Roberts	Robin	277
Rolen	Scott	139
Rollins*	Jimmy	155
Rose	Pete	85
Samuel	Juan	105
Schilling	Curt	121
Schmidt	Mike	467
Seminick	Andy	110
Short	Chris	141
Simmons	Curt	121
Sparks	Tully	110
Taylor	Tony	148
Thomas	Roy	233
Thompson	Sam	166
Titus	John 	177
Utley*	Chase	93
Whitney	Pinky	113
Williams	Cy	176
		
*	current Phillie	
**	need to deduct 2006 Yankee win shares

[TheoBallgame]

Good stuff J.

So let's keep adding to the list, again the numbers are listed just to keep track of how many we've got, they don't indicate any particular order:

55. Dave Bancroft
56. Bob Boone
57. Jack Clements
58. Mickey Doolan
59. Charlie Ferguson
60. Von Hayes
61. Milke Lieberthal
62. Stan Lopata
63. Al Orth
64. Dode Paskert
65. Eppa Rixey
66. Juan Samuel
67. Andy Seminick
68. Tully Sparks
69. Tony Taylor
70. John Titus
71. Pinky Whitney
72. Cy Williams

That gives us less than 30 to go to 100, though I'd like to exceed 100 and make the cuts, just to be sure we're not missing anyone.

We're getting down to the nitty-gritty, keep the suggestions coming!

[TheoBallgame]

Someone mentioned Mitch Williams. I'm still not sure, but I did want to get a look at Phillies relievers.

Tug McGraw's already on the list. What other relievers might crack the top 100.

I would imagine Jim Konstanty, maybe Ron Reed,... Al Holland?

Thoughts?

[Steve Jeltz]

Steve Bedrosian

[TheoBallgame]

A better suggestion than Holland, I've gotta say. Short time in a Phillies uniform, but excellent while he was here.

[Steve Jeltz]

And another thread that has met a quick death.