The "Lieberthal is Terrible" Thread

[Imapotato]

A career

.275 BA
.339 OBP
.449 SLG
.788 OPS (to a league wide .775 C OPS)
.992 F%
7.15 Rnage Factor to a league wide 6.39 RF

and has given 5500+ Defensive Innings

THAT is a good career Catcher

[Androctus]

Your stats bounce off my cranium like widgets off a propane tank...

[W_Marone]

I'm not a huge Liberthal fan, but his past states havent been all that bad, plus in 99 he won a gold glove, but as far as now is concerned his defense has definanlty dropped off. He has 4 rbi this season and is batting .316. But it is early, and we will see what happens with Lieby.

[RGreener26]

I don't think a smart person would argue Lieberthal has been terrible his entire career. Even now he is still better than the average backup catcher. For instance, Baseball Prospectus gives him a VORP OF 12 (where a backup rates as a 0). I think a lot of fans in Philadelphia hear the opinion of certain people (primarily through 610 WIP) and then repeat it as the absolute truth. This happens in every big time sports town, though. Another example of this is that Bobby Abreu is not a good player because he is not clutch (which is one of the most ridiculous statements one can make).

Defensively, yes, Lieberthal is terrible. You can not quantify this with statistics, though. I think this may be the reason some fans feel his is so bad. That is, becuase they cannot put a number on how bad of a catcher he is they make generalizations about how terrible he is. The fact remains, though, that he is still a bad defensive catcher. He does little for pitchers (shown by Lieber requesting Pratt and Fasano over him two years in a row) and has a nonchalance about him.

If any player should get bashed (which he does) it is David Bell. I don't think people realize just how BAD he was last year.

[Imapotato]

Another example of this is that Bobby Abreu is not a good player because he is not clutch (which is one of the most ridiculous statements one can make).

Now who is generalizing a statement?

We bash Abreu because he is lackadasial...he could be a GREAT player if he played with Jeter's heart...but as for his stats, he is very much like Alex Rodriguez...when it is a blowout either side...he takes advanatge of a mopup P, or subpar reliever to pad his stats

His fielding is subpar because of lack of hustle...as opposed to say Jim Edmonds. I think Abreu is more physically gifted then Edmonds (alot of OFers are) but Edmonds studied hitters to get in good position and he just flat out runs full speed to ANY hit ball. I have seen Abreu on a pull hitter play closer to CF than the RF line...that is just not studying the game

So we bash Abreu not for what you said...but because everyone here knows he could be alot better if he wanted to...

[RGreener26]

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[RGreener26]

Now who is generalizing a statement?

I guess you are. Try reading a little harder. I did not say EVERY fan in Philadelphia bashes Abrey for not being clutch. I gave one instance of a complaint that SOME fans make about him, not all.

We bash Abreu because he is lackadasial.

Oh, we? Since when did your complaint of Abreu become THE only complaint of every Phillies fan about him. Isn't that a generalization?

but as for his stats, he is very much like Alex Rodriguez...when it is a blowout either side...he takes advanatge of a mopup P, or subpar reliever to pad his stats.

Right....he only hits poor pitching? You must be kidding? This is a ridiculous argument that can NEVER be backed up. He faces on average the same amount of pitching that every other player on the Phillies face throughout the year. I guess they just don't try hard enough to pad their stats against the poor pitchers they may see. Give me a break.

I have seen Abreu on a pull hitter play closer to CF than the RF line...that is just not studying the game.

Ya, he must be that dumb that he prefers playing closer to CF that the line against a pull, left-handed hitter. Playing closer to the line is not something that you learn in the big leagues. It is something you learn when you are 10 years old! Even if I did believe you (I don't), I think Abreu is smart enough to realize this.

So we bash Abreu not for what you said...but because everyone here knows he could be alot better if he wanted to...

Again, this is not the only reason people bash Abreu. Although I am sure you have a large following ("we"), believe it or not there are still thousands of fans who feel he is not clutch.

Regardless of whether Abreu does not try up to his full potential (which I do not necessarily agree with by the way), he is still the BEST player on this team. Ryan Howard may make a push for this claim in years to come, but not now (especially since Howard's defense isn't all that great either). I think some Phillies fans who spend a lot of their time complaining about him should realize that there are much BIGGER problems on the team (bullpen, relief pitching, catcher, etc, etc, etc.).

[LP fan]

agreed....Bobby is the best player on this team....

[W_Marone]

Last year's stats compared.....

Mike Lieberthal: 12 HR, 47 RBI, AVG. .263, OBP. .336, SLG. .418, OPS. .754 in 118 games

David Bell's: 10 HR, 61 RBI, AVG. .248, OPB. .310, SLG. .375, OPS. .671 in 150games


Now,as far as compasion goes, you guys can decide that on yourselves, I just put them up, I like David Bell however, for the most part becuase everyone around here seems to hate him.