The "Lieberthal is Terrible" Thread

[W_Marone]

Last year's stats compared.....

Mike Lieberthal: 12 HR, 47 RBI, AVG. .263, OBP. .336, SLG. .418, OPS. .754 in 118 games

David Bell's: 10 HR, 61 RBI, AVG. .248, OPB. .310, SLG. .375, OPS. .671 in 150games


Now,as far as compasion goes, you guys can decide that on yourselves, I just put them up, I like David Bell however, for the most part becuase everyone around here seems to hate him.

[LP fan]

agreed....Bobby is the best player on this team....

[RGreener26]

Now who is generalizing a statement?

I guess you are. Try reading a little harder. I did not say EVERY fan in Philadelphia bashes Abrey for not being clutch. I gave one instance of a complaint that SOME fans make about him, not all.

We bash Abreu because he is lackadasial.

Oh, we? Since when did your complaint of Abreu become THE only complaint of every Phillies fan about him. Isn't that a generalization?

but as for his stats, he is very much like Alex Rodriguez...when it is a blowout either side...he takes advanatge of a mopup P, or subpar reliever to pad his stats.

Right....he only hits poor pitching? You must be kidding? This is a ridiculous argument that can NEVER be backed up. He faces on average the same amount of pitching that every other player on the Phillies face throughout the year. I guess they just don't try hard enough to pad their stats against the poor pitchers they may see. Give me a break.

I have seen Abreu on a pull hitter play closer to CF than the RF line...that is just not studying the game.

Ya, he must be that dumb that he prefers playing closer to CF that the line against a pull, left-handed hitter. Playing closer to the line is not something that you learn in the big leagues. It is something you learn when you are 10 years old! Even if I did believe you (I don't), I think Abreu is smart enough to realize this.

So we bash Abreu not for what you said...but because everyone here knows he could be alot better if he wanted to...

Again, this is not the only reason people bash Abreu. Although I am sure you have a large following ("we"), believe it or not there are still thousands of fans who feel he is not clutch.

Regardless of whether Abreu does not try up to his full potential (which I do not necessarily agree with by the way), he is still the BEST player on this team. Ryan Howard may make a push for this claim in years to come, but not now (especially since Howard's defense isn't all that great either). I think some Phillies fans who spend a lot of their time complaining about him should realize that there are much BIGGER problems on the team (bullpen, relief pitching, catcher, etc, etc, etc.).

[RGreener26]

Read Below

[Imapotato]

Another example of this is that Bobby Abreu is not a good player because he is not clutch (which is one of the most ridiculous statements one can make).

Now who is generalizing a statement?

We bash Abreu because he is lackadasial...he could be a GREAT player if he played with Jeter's heart...but as for his stats, he is very much like Alex Rodriguez...when it is a blowout either side...he takes advanatge of a mopup P, or subpar reliever to pad his stats

His fielding is subpar because of lack of hustle...as opposed to say Jim Edmonds. I think Abreu is more physically gifted then Edmonds (alot of OFers are) but Edmonds studied hitters to get in good position and he just flat out runs full speed to ANY hit ball. I have seen Abreu on a pull hitter play closer to CF than the RF line...that is just not studying the game

So we bash Abreu not for what you said...but because everyone here knows he could be alot better if he wanted to...

[RGreener26]

I don't think a smart person would argue Lieberthal has been terrible his entire career. Even now he is still better than the average backup catcher. For instance, Baseball Prospectus gives him a VORP OF 12 (where a backup rates as a 0). I think a lot of fans in Philadelphia hear the opinion of certain people (primarily through 610 WIP) and then repeat it as the absolute truth. This happens in every big time sports town, though. Another example of this is that Bobby Abreu is not a good player because he is not clutch (which is one of the most ridiculous statements one can make).

Defensively, yes, Lieberthal is terrible. You can not quantify this with statistics, though. I think this may be the reason some fans feel his is so bad. That is, becuase they cannot put a number on how bad of a catcher he is they make generalizations about how terrible he is. The fact remains, though, that he is still a bad defensive catcher. He does little for pitchers (shown by Lieber requesting Pratt and Fasano over him two years in a row) and has a nonchalance about him.

If any player should get bashed (which he does) it is David Bell. I don't think people realize just how BAD he was last year.

[W_Marone]

I'm not a huge Liberthal fan, but his past states havent been all that bad, plus in 99 he won a gold glove, but as far as now is concerned his defense has definanlty dropped off. He has 4 rbi this season and is batting .316. But it is early, and we will see what happens with Lieby.

[Androctus]

Your stats bounce off my cranium like widgets off a propane tank...

[Imapotato]

A career

.275 BA
.339 OBP
.449 SLG
.788 OPS (to a league wide .775 C OPS)
.992 F%
7.15 Rnage Factor to a league wide 6.39 RF

and has given 5500+ Defensive Innings

THAT is a good career Catcher

[Androctus]

Here Here!!!

**Drains another Ballantine**

[ed hardiman]

I find it hard to believe anyone would bash Lieberthal. One game and he's suddenly a loser..LOL Twelve year veteren of the same team. How often does that happen thesedays?

Yes and no doubt you are forgetting they got rid of Estrada for Millworm, who should've moved the oft-injured Lieby, and the intransigence to allow any of their farm system catchers to get MLB, AB's which would've also moved him on, I don't hate the guy after all he's a career .275, 21 HR kinda guy you can get 130 games out of but that didn't happen til he was 30 in 2002, and last year he dropped to 118 games, Fasano dropped the easiest pop foul last night get him off the team...dreadful...bring up Ruiz.

[Phillie_Fan]

I find it hard to believe anyone would bash Lieberthal. One game and he's suddenly a loser..LOL Twelve year veteren of the same team. How often does that happen thesedays?

[Androctus]

Well Phils Fans, there could be good news on the horizon, I have seen on ESPN insider that the Phillies could be making a deal to aquire Paulino, I dont remember his first name, a young catching prospect from within the Pirates organization.

I hope not. What would they give up to put another catching prospect down on the farm when they already have several

[Call Me Genius]

Well Phils Fans, there could be good news on the horizon, I have seen on ESPN insider that the Phillies could be making a deal to aquire Paulino, I dont remember his first name, a young catching prospect from within the Pirates organization.

[Ben Whitman]

Phillies fans constantly kill Leiby. You could be much worse off.

Ben