Abreu Haters

[Ben Whitman]

I know alot of Philly fans are less than thrilled with Bobby Abreu despite the fact he puts up tremendous numbers year after year. I know the Gold Glove was a joke, but let's hear your cases against Abreu.

-Ben
www.phillypurge.com

[Ubiquitous]

They haven't won a world series yet while he was on the team therefore it is his fault. In Philly it seems its always the best players fault for the lack of success of the team and franchise.

[ed hardiman]

www.*********.com

Why don't you tell us why you keep spamming our forum?

[Ben Whitman]

I'm not spamming bro, just trying to mix in.

-Ben

[Ben Whitman]

They haven't won a world series yet while he was on the team therefore it is his fault. In Philly it seems its always the best players fault for the lack of success of the team and franchise.

That makes a lot of sense. Trust me, I suffered for a long time with the Red Sox but it was usually management that got the blame. Ed Wade got a ton of heat down there, but now he's gone and Abreu is the scapegoat?

-Ben

[Ubiquitous]

Even when Wade was there Abreu recieved heat. Right around the time he recieved his big contract is when he went from underdog to lazy bum in a lot of fans eyes.

[Ben Whitman]

Even when Wade was there Abreu recieved heat. Right around the time he recieved his big contract is when he went from underdog to lazy bum in a lot of fans eyes.

So what's your personal opinion? Is it deserved at all? Is it that he's not clutch?

[Ubiquitous]

No I don't think Abreu is worthy of the scorn. If Abreu was your worst player or even just the worst player in the OF then you would have a very good to great team on your hands.

I don't know what clutch is but if I did I don't think I would say that Bobby Abreu is not clutch. He produces and he produces a lot. Is he a great defender? No. Is he a horrible defender? I don't know I haven't really watched him since I left Philly but in the first 6 years that I saw him I would say he wasn't even close to being a bad RF'er. He wasn't a great fielder or even a very good to good fielder but he wasn't terrible.

[Ben Whitman]

I don't know what clutch is but if I did I don't think I would say that Bobby .

I guess I would call clutch hitting with runners in scoring postion, hits that tie or give the lead, numbers from the 7th inning on. For instance, I saw a breakdown of A-Rod's numbers from the first couple seasons in NY and alot of his production was 5th inning or earlier, and he's stunk in the post season, so I would say A-Rod, while great, is not clutch.

[Ubiquitous]

Why is something that happens before the 5th not clutch? Performing or failing in the early innings is what decides what will and will not be clutch in the later innings. If my team scores 8 runs in the firs 2 innings while only allowing 2 runs through 7 innings then most of the time nothing my team does in the later innings is going to be clutch. So isn't hitting a grand slam in the first inning to go up 4-0 hugely important? If instead I GIDP doesn't that cost my team a ton of runs and a huge chance at winning the game?

Secondly we are dealing with a sample size issue here. ARod has played in about 310 games over the last two seasons. About 1400 PA. Now I'm willing to bet that out of those 1400 PA about 600 at most came after the 5th with it probably being around 500. 500 PA over two seasons against many different teams and pitchers in differing weather and parks makes just too small of a sample size to be able to say one way or the other. Plus on top of that we have no real baseline. How did other players perform after the 5th?

[Ben Whitman]

[QUOTE=Ubiquitous]Why is something that happens before the 5th not clutch? Performing or failing in the early innings is what decides what will and will not be clutch in the later innings. If my team scores 8 runs in the firs 2 innings while only allowing 2 runs through 7 innings then most of the time nothing my team does in the later innings is going to be clutch. So isn't hitting a grand slam in the first inning to go up 4-0 hugely important? QUOTE]

Your points are valid, but I rather have a guy coming to the plate who does well in the 7th or later when my team is trailing. It's not to say that runs scored early in games aren't important, obviously they count just like any others, but when the pressure is on, and you're trailing in the late innings with only 3 outs to go and you got a guy who comes through time after time (David Ortiz) he's "clutch."

[Ubiquitous]

But again there just isn't enough of a sample size to say one way or another. With so few PA's one or two outliers can change the appearance of everything.

[Ben Whitman]

Yeah, I hear ya, and I'm not up on SABRmetrics as much as I probably should be, but I still believe in the theory of a "clutch hitter."

[moebarguy]

I'd say that a hitter who is "clutch" technically should have the highest OBP. If the game's on the line, you have to play percentages. If a guy has a high OBP, there's more of a chance of him getting on some how, and even knocking in a run.

[Ben Whitman]

I'd say that a hitter who is "clutch" technically should have the highest OBP. .

That makes sense to a certain point, but what if his OBP is drastically lower in key situations?