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Best Phillie not in the hall of fame from 1960-present?

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  • #16
    Of those eligible, Iwould say Allen. He had the personality of a weed. But he was a great player,
    Of all players Rose.

    Welcome back ARod. Hope you are a Yankee forever.
    Phil Rizzuto-a Yankee forever.

    Holy Cow

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    • #17
      Originally posted by soberdennis
      Of those eligible, Iwould say Allen. He had the personality of a weed. But he was a great player,
      Of all players Rose.

      Did you ever meet and get to know Dick Allen?

      Me, either. He was crucified by the media, but who cares about them? Long before that, as a young man in the mid-60's, he was scurillously singled out by racists in Philadelphia for racist taunts and other hellacious mistreatment. That's not just a barrage of allegations. Those are well-known facts. I'm pretty careful about tossing out allegations of racism because I know how quick most Americans are to roll their eyes at them.

      This is a guy who went through hell. A LOT worse than Albert Belle did, and Belle went through quite a bit, although in Belle's case, I have personal reasons for empathizing (we're both recovered alcoholics, but he got a lot of grief and taunts over it; I've been respected for 26+ years now for having beaten the disease, by a lot of people, because I conquered my illness without A.A., medical help or anything else except my willpower and the realization it was a choice of quit or die).

      YEAH, Allen "acted out," in modern psychobabble parlance, but since I'm not black and I sure as hell didn't go through what he did with those jackasses at Connie Mack Stadium every night, I'm not going to pass judgment on the man. I wanted to find Bill James and smack him when I read the portion of his abstract comparing Allen to Hornsby and saying he lost half his career, or some such thing, to immaturity. Stick to your stats, Bill.

      Anyway, even for those who wholly disagree with me about Allen, and feel that: (1) he was an uppity n-----; or (2) although they don't have a racist bone in their bodies, his behavior was inexcusable (including up and quitting) because of how it hurt his TEAMS (a perspective I can respect); (3) they dislike him for WHATEVER reasons that I'm not privy to:

      We say this all the time in all sorts of other contexts, and I'll say it again now: Rogers Hornsby (a horrible person) and Ty Cobb (the ultimate mixed bag) are in the Hall, and Barry Bonds (a horrible person, IMO) is headed there for sure, even with all the asterisks he's earned. MANY other miserable excuses for humans are in the Hall. As far as I know, we pretty much all agree a person's miserable failings as a man should have nothing to do with his fitness for the Hall, UNLESS it hurt his performance as a player to the extent it rendered him, ultimately, statistically unqualified for the Hall. Nobody would say that's true of Hornsby, Cobb or Bonds, nor of dipsomaniacs like Hack Wilson or Jimmie Foxx. I don't think anyone would say it was true of loony Rube Waddell, even though it cost him who-knows-how-many wins.

      But Dick Allen played longer than some Hall of Famers. He won, I believe, 2 of the only 3 HR titles won by a player playing in old Comiskey. He hit the bejesus out of the ball, and scared the hell out of pitchers. He was Dave Kingman WITHOUT the .236 batting average and .302 OBP. (OK, maybe he didn't hit them THAT far, but close...)

      And I'm just not convinced he's all that despicable a person. Yeah, the media say so, but some bozos with voting powers say Pedro Martinez shouldn't get into the Hall. That's the Pedro who has--BY FAR--the best Adjusted ERA in the history of Baseball, as well as 5 ERA titles and arguably the single most heroic post-season pitching performance ever, plus the best W-L % of anyone with 200 wins.

      IMO, they should really scrutinize both the voting credentials and the employment credentials of these announcers and sportscasters with such obviously poisoned agendas. I mean, I absolutely H-A-T-E Rogers Hornsby, but if they decided to start the Hall all over, because it has such dozens of inarguably unqualified members, and if (ha ha ha) they gave me voting rights, I sure as hell wouldn't vote against Hornsby's admission into the Hall. THAT is how absurd that jackass sounded to me, in saying Pedro shouldn't make the Hall. Yet on he goes, working for ESPN and exercising his Hall vote.

      I think we all should be a little less quick to accept as gospel the notion Dick Allen was a world-class jerk, just as Mr. Burgess urges us to be less quick in accepting the one-dimensional, cardboard villain image of Ty Cobb which existed to a large extent even in Cobb's playing days, and has grown exponentionally in the 78 years since he played his last game.

      Baseball History Nut

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      • #18
        Originally posted by graybeard
        In my opinion Allen's baseball credentials are about average for members of the Baseball Hall of Fame. Rose's would fall in the lowest quarter. And, it's still too early to tell about any of the active players.

        Graybead

        Out of curiousity, Graybeard:

        Would you still feel that way if Rose had retired 4 or 5 years earlier, rather than sticking around as an atrocious, no-power, poor-average first baseman for the sole purpose of breaking the hits record? ALL of his average stats suffered mightily from that exercise in egoism, of course.

        Would you put him in the bottom quadrant if he'd quit after 1981 or 1982? THIS IS A QUESTION ON WHICH I'D REALLY LIKE YOUR PERSPECTIVE--AND, FOR THAT MATTER, THE PERSPECTIVES OF OTHER MEMBERS.


        Just for those who don't know, here are, for example, Rose's "slugging" averages for his last five seasons: 1982, .338; 1983, .286; 1984, .337;
        1985, .395; 1986, .319.) That's for a slow-footed FIRST BASEMAN with NO POWER--he hit FIVE home runs total in those five years, and 13 triples. IMO, if MLB was going to be so high-and-mighty about the "integrity" of the game in barring Minoso from playing one game in the 1990's, it should have barred Rose from being a "first baseman" of such pathetically deficient skills, for so many years, for the sole purpose of breaking a record.

        But, as with our current mess, it was a statistical fraud which filled a lot of seats, so....

        Baseball History Nut

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