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Pittsburgh Pirates To Open a Team HOF Fame in 2020. Charter members?

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  • Pittsburgh Pirates To Open a Team HOF Fame in 2020. Charter members?

    The Pittsburgh Pirates Team Hall Of Fame & Museum in the final touches stage and it will open in 2020.
    Here's some suggestions for its charter members:

    Managers:
    Danny Murtaugh
    Jim Leyland
    Chuck Tanner

    Catchers:
    Jason Kendall
    Manny Sanguillen
    Smokey Burgess
    Tony Pena
    Al Lopez

    First Basemen
    Jake Beckley
    Willie Stargell (!B/OF)
    Richie Hebner (1B/3B)
    Dick Stuart
    Josh Bell*
    Jason Thompson


    2B/SS/3B
    Bill Mazeroski
    Dick Bartell
    Wally Westlake
    Dick Groat
    Arky Vaughan
    Pie Traynor
    Honus Wagner
    Gene Alley
    Bob Elliott
    Bill Madlock
    Phil Garner
    Frank Gustine
    Tony Womack
    Bobby Bonilla
    Jeff King

    Outfielders
    Roberto Clemente
    Ginger Beaumont
    Al Oliver (OF/1B)
    Dave Parker
    Frank Thomas
    Paul Waner
    Lloyd Waner
    Max Carey
    Bill Virdon
    Fred Clarke
    Ralph Kiner
    Vince Di Maggio
    Bob Skinner
    Matty Alou
    Barry Bonds
    Jason Bay
    Brian Giles
    Omar Moreno
    Tommy Leach
    Andrew McCutcheon*
    Starling Marte*
    Bryan Reynolds*
    Andy Van Slyke


    Pitchers
    Wilbur Cooper
    Pud Galvin
    Bob Friend
    Vern Law
    Roy Face
    Babe Adams
    Jesse Tannehill
    John Candelaria
    Steve Blass
    Kent Tekulve
    Bert Blyleven
    Vic Willis
    Rip Sewell
    Rick Reuschel
    Mike Williams
    A.J. Burnett
    Jason Grilli
    Mark Melancon*
    Rick Rhoden
    Bob Walk
    Dock Ellis
    Rich 'Goose' Gossage
    Joel Hanrahan
    Bob Veale
    Harvey Haddix
    Jerry Reuss
    John Smiley
    Sam Leever
    Deacon Phillippe
    Gerrit Cole*
    Murry Dickson

    Utility
    Josh Harrison*


    Broadcasters
    Bob Prince

    Sportswriters (Pirates Beat Reporters)
    Chuck Feeney

    Owners/GMs/Executives
    John Galbraeth
    Barney Dreyfuss
    William Benswanger
    Joe E. Brown
    Harding Peterson

    *Still Active

    Who am I missing?
    Last edited by philliesfiend55; 10-02-2019, 09:56 AM.

  • #2
    Nice list. Jason Thompson does not belong. He had one good year. Gossage had one year, period. Bob Walk? Blyleven was not in the HOF because of his time with the Pirates. Tommy Leach is a must add, same goes for Ginger Beaumont from the Honus Wagner era teams. You could argue Drabek over Smiley for the Bonds teams. Hebner was a 3B fwiw. Deacon Phillippe and Sam Leever may have as god a case as Jesse Tannehill from the Wagner teams.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
      Nice list. Jason Thompson does not belong. He had one good year. Gossage had one year, period. Bob Walk? Blyleven was not in the HOF because of his time with the Pirates. Tommy Leach is a must add, same goes for Ginger Beaumont from the Honus Wagner era teams. You could argue Drabek over Smiley for the Bonds teams. Hebner was a 3B fwiw. Deacon Phillippe and Sam Leever may have as god a case as Jesse Tannehill from the Wagner teams.
      Thanks to your suggestions I have added , Beaumont, Leach, Leever and Phillippe to the list - plus one other Pirate that I overlooked, Omar Moreno was also added.
      Last edited by philliesfiend55; 10-02-2019, 09:52 AM.

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      • #4
        It looks like you've named about 90% of the reasonable candidates (plus a few unreasonable ones) for their entire HOF. I don't know how many will/should be charter members, but if it were my HOF I think I'd name no more than 15, maybe 20 the first year, then add 3-5 per year after that for the next x years.

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        • #5
          Okay, here's what I would do.

          2020 inaugural Class- 15 members

          I'm numbering them, but it's not necessarily in order of merit.

          1. Honus Wagner, SS- greatest Pirate, greatest shortstop in hitory
          2. Roberto Clemente, RF-great player, probably most revered Pirate by fans
          3. Willie Stargell, LF/1B- great slugger, also beloved by fans
          4. Paul Waner, RF- great right fielder from the past, one of greatest players in franchise history
          5. Bill Mazeroski, 2B- possibly greatest defensive 2B in ML history, World Series hero, extremely popular
          6. Pie Traynor, 3B- discounted by modern analyses, Traynor remains a legend in the Pittsburgh area, both as a player and for his later TV presence
          7, Ralph Kiner, LF- 7 consecutive home run crowns says it all
          8. Dick Groat- fine player, not a HOFer, but a Pittsburgh native, still alive, revered by fans- deserves to go in while he's still alive
          9. Roy Face, RP- one of the early firemen and a good one- highly regarded by fans- ditto Groat- honor him while he's still alive
          10. Wilbur Cooper, P- possibly the best of a somewhat indifferent crop of Pirates pitchers
          11. Bob Friend- tireless workhorse of the Pirates staff for 15 years- not a HOFer, but a very good pitcher for a long time- unfortunately died a couple of years ago
          12. Andrew McCutchen, CF- they need someone from the present/recent past and Cutch is probably the best choice. Great talent, played hard, looked like he was on a possible HOF path until leg injuries slowed him down. Bonds obviously was a greater player, but he's got plenty of baggage- I'd wait until the second or third round to put him in.
          13. Danny Murtaugh, manager- in my opinion the greatest Pirates manager and one of the best of all time- woefully overlooked
          14. Joe L. Brown, General Manager- long time GM, architect of the strong Pirates teams from the late 50s through the 70s.
          15. Bob Prince, announcer- he WAS the Pirates to countless Pirates fans from the early 50s through the mid-70s- a truly unique character, and one of the most entertaining announcers in baseball history.

          I think this group does a good job of capturing the essence of the Pirates, and also represents them reasonably well over the decades. It's a little heavy on the 50s/60s- Clemente, Mazeroski, Groat, Friend, Face- but that was the time of the renaissance of Pirates baseball.

          I'd then induct 3 or 4 new faces each year for the next 4 or 5 years, then probably 1 per year after that. In all likelihood nothing like my recommendations will happen.

          For what it's worth:

          Year 2

          1. Arky Vaughan- great but nearly forgotten SS
          2. Fred Clarke- great but really forgotten LFer
          3, Kent Tekulve- great fan favorite, fine reliever
          4. Jim Leyland- managed Pirates renaissance teams of late 80s through early 90s

          Year 3

          1. Barry Bonds- gives fans enough time to settle down
          2. Vernon Law- teamed with Friend to give Pirates steady starting pitching for a decade
          3. Max Carey- another forgotten HOFer
          4. Chuck Tanner- popular manager with local ties- 79 WS champion

          Year 4

          1. Babe Adams- a very good pitcher from the earlier days
          2. Lloyd Waner- not as good as Paul, but a hit machine and a very good CFer
          3. Manny Sanguillen- star catcher of mid 60s to mid 70s
          4. Dave Parker- on a clear HOF path for about 4-5 years

          Year 5

          1. Bill Virdon- excellent defensive CFer, long-time coach and one-time manager of the Bucs
          2. Tommy Leach- excellent 3Bman from the early Pirates outstanding teams
          3. Brian Giles- short but outstanding run with Pirates
          4. Steve Blass- good pitcher until his mystery meltdown, longtime Bucs announcer
          Last edited by BigRon; 10-09-2019, 03:38 PM.

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          • #6
            Here are a few more candidates- not charter candidates- that you may have missed.

            Dave Giusti, P
            Gus Suhr, 1B
            Don Clendenon, 1B
            Elbie Fletcher, 1B
            Richie Hebner, 3B
            Neal Walker, 2B
            Johnny Ray, 2B
            Remy Kremer, P

            Lanny Frattare, announcer
            Rosie Rosewell, announcer

            And, in my opinion, the best announcer the Pirates ever had-
            Jim "Possum" Woods
            Last edited by BigRon; 10-06-2019, 05:08 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              I like BigRon's idea, but Clarke and Vaughan must be part of the inaugural class. Let Cooper and Cutch wait it out. (I can't imagine the Pirates would induct anyone still playing in the major leagues; that would be highly unusual.)

              Part of a HOF's mission, beyond honoring deserving inductees, is to promote an appreciation of history by promoting those worthies. People not knowing two of the greatest Pirates ever isn't an excuse to put off their induction; if anything, it's a reason to make their election more preeminent. Forget Pittsburgh, every baseball fan should know who these two are.

              I would also argue that manager Bill McKechnie (skipper of the 1926 World Champs) ought to be recognized at some point, though he's certainly less of a fixture than, say, Danny Murtaugh.
              Last edited by Chadwick; 10-30-2019, 09:07 AM.
              "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
              "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
              "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
              "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
                I like BigRon's idea, but Clarke and Vaughan must be part of the inaugural class. Let Cooper and Cutch wait it out. (I can't imagine the Pirates would induct anyone still playing in the major leagues; that would be highly unusual.)

                Part of a HOF's mission, beyond honoring deserving inductees, is to promote an appreciation of history by promoting those worthies. People not knowing two of the greatest Pirates ever isn't an excuse to put off their induction; if anything, it's a reason to make their election more preeminent. Forget Pittsburgh, every baseball fan should know who these two are.

                I would also argue that manager Bill McKechnie (skipper of the 1926 World Champs) ought to be recognized at some point, though he's certainly less of a fixture than, say, Danny Murtaugh.
                Brad, you're right that Vaughan and Clarke are better choices than Cooper and McCutchen. In Cooper's case, I was trying to put a little more pitching in the first class. I still believe that having a recent player in the initial class would amp up fan interest. Bonds' performance makes him an obvious choice, but he is reviled by s large part of the Pittsburgh fan base. McCutchen seems like an obvious alternative. But, you may be right about a current player.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Something else to consider - and I don't know how many the Pirates intend to honor in their inaugural class - but haven't they already stated that Steve Blass will be one of their inaugural inductees? I'm sympathetic to the "honor the living" thinking, but I'd go for greatness/influence in an inaugural class and then start focusing on the other. I suppose there might be a fear of someone like Blass, Roy Face, Dick Groat, etc. kicking the bucket before another 12-18 months passes.

                  It also depends on how the team structures the voting. Who decides how many inductees per year and which ones to pick? Do fans get a say? I've seen this with the Reds Hall of Fame and I sometimes have to scratch my head at some of the selections, but it's certainly a valid thing to do. A team should want to include its fans in these selections.

                  I'm really excited for the Pirates. I visited the Cardinals team HOF this summer and that was impressive. I've been to the Reds several times. Of the near-dozen major league parks I've been to over the years, PNC has been my favorite. Definitely the best "customer" experience of any of them. I had the good fortune to be there in September 2013, when the whole city was buzzing about the Pirates. (It was electric.) Adding a team HOF to the ballpark experience will only improve what's already a first-rate venue.

                  Good for them!
                  "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                  "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                  "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                  "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                  Comment

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