aaron foresees bonds breaking hr record

[west coast orange and black]

i have not ever claimed that the circumstances surrounding bonds are pure speculation and have no merit. what i have said repeatedly is that i do not know whether bonds used banned substances or not.

why do you continue to direct a condescending tone towards me? write to bonds directly at his web site and tell him how you feel. you continually include either name-calling or demeaning language solely because of my position regarding persons who have not been found to have used. why is this?

you said that i "refuse to use common sense in determining which way to lean", ignoring that i wrote that i have my suspicions. clearly, nothing short of me stating that bonds illegally used banned substances will please you.

'fess up now, 714 in 8399: do you actually believe that the reason bonds has not admitted to substance abuse is "because of people like [me] out there"?

thanx, though, for clearing up the #25 jersey thing. you went from "the fact he wears #25 (yes, there's something to that)" to "Theres nothing untrue about all of that, except for the #25 thing perhaps". your inclusion of "perhaps" belied the position that your comments were made tongue-in-cheek.

[runningshoes]

I'm not pointing a finger at you because I know the jury is still out for you, I was just using what you said as an example of American Justice. There are those out there who really believe, for the wrong reasons, he didn't do it.

Common sense dictates to me what I believe.

I suspect, and I could be wrong, you're hoping against hopes that he didn't, but I suspect you probably believe he did.

The ones who say he didn't do it because he didn't get caught, or in OJ's case, wasn't convicted. There's where I have a problem

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I have to be honest. I'd prefer that Bonds NOT break Aaron's record. I feel this way because if he did, it wouldn't be a joyful occasion. Instead of a great celebration, there would be too much turmoil, and accusations, and negative press about Bonds' steroid issues and pressure put on Aaron to comment on Bonds' steriod issues. It just wouldn't be any fun. And I'm a huge Bonds fan.

[runningshoes]

I have to be honest. I'd prefer that Bonds NOT break Aaron's record. I feel this way because if he did, it wouldn't be a joyful occasion. Instead of a great celebration, there would be too much turmoil, and accusations, and negative press about Bonds' steroid issues and pressure put on Aaron to comment on Bonds' steriod issues. It just wouldn't be any fun. And I'm a huge Bonds fan.

I'm right there with you. If it happens, I'll just hang my head.

[west coast orange and black]

you continue to believe that everyone must agree to and use what your own personal standards are. i find it ironic that when you write this: "The fact is, right or wrong, that there are people like you out there, who refuse to take in what it presented before you." and this: "Like I said before, why try, but it doesn't hurt to just step back from being bias either way and form an educated opinion.", it is more about you than about me.

[bondsgirrrl]

Because it's scary that someone with that attitiude would be allowed to infect the minds of childern.

It's ok to do it, just don't get caught.

I dont think that was his meesage. I think he is saying innocent till proven guilty. And that is something that is taught everywhere.

[wogdoggy]

His appearance, his unusual performance, his known relations to certain people, his attitude toward the subject which screams guilt... it should all make you at least raise an eyebrow. If it doesn't, and you hide behind the "nothing has been proven" shield, well then; bias is over-riding logic

Get off the jersey number thing, that was typed tongue in cheek. Who's trying to convince anyone of anything? Not me. You're too far gone to see the truth, why try? The fact is you DO hide behind that shield, claiming that all things are pure speculation, and any accusations have no merit. Why, because Bonds hasn't come out and admitted it? Don't hold your breath for that one. The reason he won't ever admit it, is because he knows there are people like you out there, who refuse to use common sense in determining which way to lean. Thats sad.


You got it man. VERY VERY SAD!

[RobertHConner]

do you want to be the pot or the kettle?

1) I notice, and not for the first time on thise site, that the strange power surge among the 1973 Braves was completely ignored. I guess they only count as blinders if Bonds is involved.

2) People keep saying that nobody gets stronger at the tail end of their playing days.
Ted Williams had his best AB/HR ratio (100 game minimum) of his career at age 41...1960-29 HR-10.7 AB/HR...4.1 above career avg.
Hank Aaron had his best at age 39...1973-40 HR-9.8 AB/HR...6.6 better than career average
Carlton Fisk had best ratio (76 games) at age 40...1988-19 HR-13.3 AB/HR... 10 full AB above career average
Johnny Mize: best ratio at age 37 (90 games)...1950-25 HR-11.0...6.9 better than career avg.
Paul Molitor: best ratio at age 36...1993-22 HR-28.9...17.4 above career avg.
Cal Ripken: top AB/HR ratio at age 38 (86 games...1999-18 HR-18.4...8.4 above career ratio
Darrell Evans: topped out at age 40...1985-40 HR-12.6...9.1 above career avg (is it a coincidence that his other 40 HR season came when he was with Aaron & Davey Johnson in '73, the year a 39-year old Hammer hit 'em out at a greater rate than at any other point in his career?)

that last bit doesn't do anything to exonerate Bonds, I'm not interested in doing that-he could very well be guilty, but it points out the stupidity of claiming that the players from the 60's & 70's weren't up to anything in the chemical enhancement field. To state, as pure fact, that Bonds cheated is wrong. That would be an opinion-something I have absolutely no problem with. To state as fact that Aaron was forthright in his pursuit of Ruth is also wrong. He may have done it honestly, but the 1971 & 1973 power surges, especially the team surge in '73, coupled with the claims of Tom House (who is not trying to sell a book about the subject and did not name names) make it laughable that Bonds should receive absolute condemnation, while the shadows of doubt concerning the 70's are completely ignored. Conversely, it would be wrong to state beyond the shadow of a doubt that Bonds didn't do anything. We can only suspect & opine. Bud Selig said that no records should be erased (I don't agree with Goofy too terribly often, but I do on this subject--you have to be awfully sure before you eradicate a man's career). One of his reasons for this was that it would open the door to a long dark hallway that should remain closed. Look, he was a personal friend of Aaron's. I can't say specifically what he is referring to, but that sounded rather cryptic and knowing to me. Aaron has a teammate who says performance enhancers ran rampant at that time. With the exception Andy Van Slyke (who admits that he doesn't know it to be an irrefutable fact), I haven't heard any of Bonds' former teammates accuse him of much more than being a pain in the butt (even that's been refuted by guys like Todd Benzinger). I digress.

I'd like to hear some response to the 1973 Braves, Tom House, Pete Rose (behavior/late career physique) questions and/or charges. Either acknowledge the hypocrisy or open the damn door all the way, once & for all. Ted Williams could very well have been treated for steroids in Korea when he was laid up for a month and a half. Mantle actually told friends that steroids were responsible for his bulking up while in the hospital during a prolonged stay as a teenager. If he thought that steroids had healed him & made him stronger, what would have stopped him from taking them years later as a player?

Hank Aaron made a little wish early in 1974 that is 48 HR away from to pass exactly as he wished it would...Henry Aaron, Spring Training 1974: "Believe me, I'll be pulling for him. And I hope they give him as much hell as they have me.". Aaron still 1 HR shy of Ruth had been asked about the possibility of his upcoming record someday falling. I think Bonds will have the record by the end of this season, early May '07 at the latest. If he doesn't, he doesn't. If he does it I believe he will have earned it. I don't see an overwhelming movement to remove Perry, Ford or Drysdale from the HOF. Where's the indignation about Norm Cash's career season in which he admits to having cheated (cork). Don't tell me personality doesn't play a large part in who is held responsible and who we look the other way for.

One last thing, O.J. Simpson & a double murder is a wildly inappropriate analogy. Murder & spousal abuse...cheating at baseball...hmmmmm:noidea

[west coast orange and black]

rch: ...it would open the door to a long dark hallway that should remain closed.

agreed, rch. i don't even wanna go there.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Wow, I'd never heard of any stories about Aaron possibly being on PEDs before.

[west coast orange and black]

if 6 hofers are to believed, wags, lots of guys used on a regular basis.

[RobertHConner]

if 6 hofers are to believed, wags, lots of guys used on a regular basis.

I missed those details...who are the 6?

[JoeFriday]

RobertHConner Said:
"I'd like to hear some response to the 1973 Braves, Tom House, Pete Rose (behavior/late career physique) questions and/or charges. Either acknowledge the hypocrisy or open the damn door all the way, once & for all. Ted Williams could very well have been treated for steroids in Korea when he was laid up for a month and a half. Mantle actually told friends that steroids were responsible for his bulking up while in the hospital during a prolonged stay as a teenager. If he thought that steroids had healed him & made him stronger, what would have stopped him from taking them years later as a player?"


I find your statements grossly misinformed at best and borderline libel at worst. I do not recall any ailment that would require Ted Williams to use Anabolic Steroids. The only things that I'm aware that Ted suffered from in Korea was and inner ear problem and pneumonia. I have never ever heard Mantle's quote and unless there are some links provided I'm going to chaulk up as outright fiction. And The final nail in the coffin to both of these statements is that The First Anabolic Steroids created in the US were discovered by Ciba and Dr. John Zigler in 1956 and first marketed in 1958.

Also for what its worth Tom House retracted his accusation that Steroids were widespread, and He not only is selling Books but selling books on the importants of upper body strength and selling products that claim to add 5mph to your fastball. As far as I'm concerned he's a snake oil salesman and looking to not only cahs in on the publicity surrounding steroids but try to discredit them in an effort to drum up his own cottage industry.

[RobertHConner]

Steroids were created well before they were on the market here. The Army used them to put mass back on starvation victims and other sick individuals who had suffered drastic weight loss. Just because you yourself are uninformed does not make my comments slanderous. I am not at home right now, but I will give you the title & author of the Mantle bio (I believe it was called the Last American Hero) tomorrow (Saturday). I never said Williams & Mantle did anything, just that according to the rules today's atheletes are subjected to they are not beyond the scope of possibility. The argument has been spewed forth that no one gets better at hitting for power as they age. This is not true in the case of either Williams or Aaron. By the way, Williams hadn't hit his best HR/AB ratio until after you say the US had steroid access. I don't know what anyone who hasn't been caught outright did or did not do. Sick servicemen could easily been exposed to steroids by the Korean war. Long-term pneumonia will cause a person to lose a considerable amount of weight. That is a fact.

I don't believe I used the word Anabolic. I could be wrong, but I don't recall that being part of the argument.

[RobertHConner]

1935 Testosterone is first synthesized by Butenandt and Ruzicka who earn a nobel prize in chemistry for the accomplishment.
World War II German soldiers are said to be given testosterone to increase their performance on the battlefield.
1940s Testosterone is first introduced into the sporting arena.
1952 Russian olympic team performs extremely well at its first games in Helsinki. Accusations are made of steroid use, especially by the wrestling team.
1953 The first anabolic steroid '19-nortestosterone' is synthesized. It has three to five times the muscle building effects of testosterone.
1954 At the world weightlifting championships in Vienaa, a Soviet Union coach informs U.S. coach Dr. John Ziegler that the Soviet team was using testosterone. On returning home, Dr. Ziegler began using testosterone with his weightlifters.
1950s - 1970s Steroid use spreads as more and more athletes begin using in order to compete against those who are allegedly already doing so.
1975 Steroid use is banned by the International Olympic Committee.

this comes directly from http://www.erowid.org/pharms/steroid...s_timeline.php

You have accused me of slander, libel, delusion and/or ignorance. The evidence seems to insinuate something else entirely.

Atheletes were using this crap in the 50's. Some Military folks would have known about it earlier. Tom House has certainly written books on pitching. I guess I should have specified that he was not publishing a Jose Canseco-type novel. He has not written a tell-all book. I assumed that it would be understood that I was referring to a steroid/Bouton/Canseco book. You've still found no logical explaination for the surge in the 1973 Braves....but thanks for the vicious, blind defense. This generation is not the first to experiment with 'better living through chemistry'. The NFL & Wrestling, not to mention bodybuilders, knew about this stuff in the 1960's & '70's. Why would baseball be immune? How is Pete Rose's connection with a steroid distribution ring in the 80's so much less incriminating than Bonds' connection to Balco?