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  • #16
    Originally posted by milladrive View Post

    I think both franchises have every bit of right to "parasite" their histories before moving to California. It irks me no end that Washington doesn't better honor their Montreal heritage. And so on. Don't let your animosity toward O'Malley and Stoneham cloud your objectivity.

    As well, I know you're not conflating the tradition of fandom being handed down from father to son (and daughter), and the fact that new ownership in Queens will mean the team will not be handed down from father to son. The way you worded that passage, it seems as if that's what you meant.
    I'm being objective. Los Angeles and San Francisco had long standing PCL teams with history and heritage. Those were snuffed out by the MLB owners' refusal to share their revenue pie with outsiders. In the process of heisting those PCL territories from their rightful owners, they snuffed out the two most fabled franchises in the National League: The New York franchise and the Brooklyn franchise.

    Today's San Francisco Giants and Los Angeles Dodgers have exactly the same connection to New York and Brooklyn that the Nationals have to the Expos. None. The connection a franchise has to its past is in the hearts and minds of its fans. There might be continuity in team record books, but the Brooklyn Dodgers, New York Giants and Montreal Expos are extinct.

    - I meant fandom is handed down from father to son. Jeff will get cash instead.


    "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Mongoose View Post

      I'm being objective. Los Angeles and San Francisco had long standing PCL teams with history and heritage. Those were snuffed out by the MLB owners' refusal to share their revenue pie with outsiders. In the process of heisting those PCL territories from their rightful owners, they snuffed out the two most fabled franchises in the National League: The New York franchise and the Brooklyn franchise.

      Today's San Francisco Giants and Los Angeles Dodgers have exactly the same connection to New York and Brooklyn that the Nationals have to the Expos. None. The connection a franchise has to its past is in the hearts and minds of its fans. There might be continuity in team record books, but the Brooklyn Dodgers, New York Giants and Montreal Expos are extinct.
      So what? That doesn't mean those teams never existed. I don't get it. You don't like it when the New York Mets honor the New York Giants and Brooklyn Dodgers, and you don't like California honoring them either. Jackie Robinson never played for either Queens or Los Angeles. According to you, neither franchise should honor him. It's sentiments like yours that keep Washington from acknowledging the likes of Raines, Carter, Guerrero, or Dawson. A real crime.

      There used to be professional teams in towns like Baltimore, Atlanta, Milwaukee, Kansas City, Dallas, Phoenix, etc., that had to move, adjust, or shut down due to MLB moving in. Such is life in the big city. And the players on today's Giants and Dodgers have even less connection to the PCL than they do to the very franchises they play for that were once located in another town. Do you really think the LA Stars or SF Seals were worth saving at the expense of southern and northern California getting big league teams? C'mon.
      Put it in the books.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by milladrive View Post

        So what? That doesn't mean those teams never existed. I don't get it. You don't like it when the New York Mets honor the New York Giants and Brooklyn Dodgers, and you don't like California honoring them either. Jackie Robinson never played for either Queens or Los Angeles. According to you, neither franchise should honor him. It's sentiments like yours that keep Washington from acknowledging the likes of Raines, Carter, Guerrero, or Dawson. A real crime.

        There used to be professional teams in towns like Baltimore, Atlanta, Milwaukee, Kansas City, Dallas, Phoenix, etc., that had to move, adjust, or shut down due to MLB moving in. Such is life in the big city. And the players on today's Giants and Dodgers have even less connection to the PCL than they do to the very franchises they play for that were once located in another town. Do you really think the LA Stars or SF Seals were worth saving at the expense of southern and northern California getting big league teams? C'mon.
        I never said the Mets shouldn't honor Jackie Robinson. I've been advocating for a proper museum at Coupon Field instead of the low effort Rotunda, or the fake museum Fred never built, in the middle of nowhere, near Canal Street. The Jackie Robinson Rotunda doesn't educate like a museum would, was too narrow focus to celebrate the Mets' NL heritage, and underscored the lack of any other nods to team history. The whole sitution was bungled, due to insensitivity and low effort.

        The PCL was close to the Majors in stature, and the owners of the larger teams had been led to believe they'd eventually be elevated to ML status. It's not a comparable situation to smaller markets that were in the east and midwest regions already covered by ML teams. SF and LA were big cities, and the owners were stabbed in the back. The Giants and Dodgers fans were stabbed in the back. I've posted links before in other threads that go over the narrative. No time to find them now.

        The crime of the Expos' demise was perpetrated by MLB. They played hardball in pressuring the city of Montreal to build a new stadium. The league was literally the franchise's executioner. There's no reason for fans in Washington (most in the region still support the Orioles) to remember Carter, Raines, etc., any more than fans anywhere else. Blame the league for that.


        "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Mongoose View Post

          I never said the Mets shouldn't honor Jackie Robinson. I've been advocating for a proper museum at Coupon Field instead of the low effort Rotunda, or the fake museum Fred never built, in the middle of nowhere, near Canal Street. The Jackie Robinson Rotunda doesn't educate like a museum would, was too narrow focus to celebrate the Mets' NL heritage, and underscored the lack of any other nods to team history. The whole sitution was bungled, due to insensitivity and low effort.

          The PCL was close to the Majors in stature, and the owners of the larger teams had been led to believe they'd eventually be elevated to ML status. It's not a comparable situation to smaller markets that were in the east and midwest regions already covered by ML teams. SF and LA were big cities, and the owners were stabbed in the back. The Giants and Dodgers fans were stabbed in the back. I've posted links before in other threads that go over the narrative. No time to find them now.

          The crime of the Expos' demise was perpetrated by MLB. They played hardball in pressuring the city of Montreal to build a new stadium. The league was literally the franchise's executioner. There's no reason for fans in Washington (most in the region still support the Orioles) to remember Carter, Raines, etc., any more than fans anywhere else. Blame the league for that.
          As much as we agree that Fred has always loved the Dodgers more than he has the Mets, and that he's mishandled all things historical (ever see Citi's yearbook display?), this really wasn't about Robinson. Poor choice of example on my part. Replace Robinson with any Dodger or Giant who never played in either Queens or California, and that's the point. What you've been saying is that neither New York nor California are entitled to pay homage to the New York Giants and Brooklyn Dodgers. I disagree wholeheartedly.

          As for the Stars and Seals, any time a new bigger business moves into town, older smaller businesses are often collateral damage. My question was if you feel those teams should've been spared at the expense of MLB teams in those two big cities. Should they be hosting their own AAA teams? Perhaps LA and SF should never have gotten MLB teams?

          You're saying there's no reason for fans to celebrate players from the previous locales. Nonsense. For instance, Joan Payson had every right to honor her lost Giants. And she did. As you know, both NYC teams were honored by those early Mets. Perhaps it would've been easier to break the connections had the new team not used things like the "NY" logo Bud Black is donning in the OP. ...I'm being facetious. Just because a franchise changes its brand when it changes cities doesn't mean there's reason for the org to stop embracing its history. I'm not saying the fans in one place will be loyal to a team playing elsewhere. That would be silly. Folks in DC weren't buying hot dogs in Quebec for more than 35 years, and Expo fans have zero interest in the Nats. Not the point. I believe a city should honor its history (let Milwaukee celebrate the Braves for its 13 seasons, e.g.), and the franchise should too (let the Braves celebrate its history in Milwaukee and Boston).
          Put it in the books.

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          • #20
            Shouldn't this discussion be in the Mets section. The Yankees have actual playoffs to discuss. Sigh.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
              Shouldn't this discussion be in the Mets section. The Yankees have actual playoffs to discuss. Sigh.
              Actually, if it's to be moved, it'd likely go to the SF Giants board, since the player in the OP was a Giant. I agree it's out of place here, tho. I initially left it here because the misplacement was noted early on and the subsequent discussion has involved numerous teams. But I'm not against moving it, since none of those teams is the Yankees.
              Put it in the books.

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              • #22
                Upon further consideration, PVNICK's right. Aside from pointing out that the Yankees are in yet another postseason while the Mets aren't (sigh is right, heh), this thread really doesn't belong on the Yankees board.

                Since the player pic in the OP is Bud Black, and the Giants are one of the teams in the subsequent exchange, I think the thread best belongs in the San Francisco Giants section.
                Put it in the books.

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                • #23
                  The Giants (and Dodgers) have always embraced their NY and Brooklyn heritage. Periodically they wear a NYG uniform, including the heinous 1916 checker board uniform.
                  “Well, I like to say I’m completely focused, right? I mean, the game’s on the line. It’s not like I’m thinking about what does barbecue Pop Chips and Cholula taste like. Because I already know that answer — it tastes friggin’ awesome!"--Brian Wilson

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