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  • New Bonds Allegations

    Thoughts?
    :radio
    __
    Excerpts from the Book
    • Bonds was motivated to take performance-enhancing drugs by the Mark McGwire-Sammy Sosa chase of the single-season home run record in 1998 and he had never taken any before 1998.


    • Through research, Bonds developed a deep knowledge of performance enhancers. He even talked, through third parties, to medical authorities who advised him not to use steroids.


    • He began with Winstrol after the 1998 season. He also worked out extensively, sometimes spending 12 hours a day at the gym where he met the Weight Guru, who turned out to be Greg Anderson.


    • He also took Deca-Durabolin. By 2001, the authors allege, he was using two designer steroids referred to as the Cream and the Clear, as well as insulin, human growth hormone, testosterone decanoate (a fast-acting steroid known as Mexican beans) and trenbolone, a steroid created to improve the muscle quality of cattle. That's the same year Bonds broke Mark McGwire's single-season home-run record (70) by belting 73.


    • He got the substances from Anderson, his personal trainer who became a San Francisco Giants employee. Anderson got them from BALCO labs, headed by Victor Conte. Anderson's employment by the Giants irked the team's training staff, according to the excerpt. The Giants also did a background check, discovering that "World Gym was known as a place to score steroids and that Anderson himself was rumored to be a dealer. But the club decided it didn't want to alienate Bonds on this issue, either. The trainers stayed."


    • Despite seeing a big change in Bonds' physical appearance, Giants officials did not challenge their star for fear of upsetting him. "The Giants, from owner Peter Magowan to manager Dusty Baker, had no interest in learning whether Bonds was using steroids, either," the excerpt contends. "Although it was illegal to use the drugs without a prescription, baseball had never banned steroids. Besides, by pursuing the issue, the Giants ran the risk of poisoning their relationship with their touchy superstar -- or, worse, of precipitating a drug scandal the year before the opening of their new ballpark, where Bonds was supposed to be the main gate attraction."


    • Anderson kept meticulous records on Bonds' program, many of them on a computer. At times, Bonds gulped as many as 20 pills at a time. He also learned to inject himself.


    • Bonds had a relationship with Kimberly Bell, a woman he met in the Candlestick Park parking lot in 1994 while he was married. Bonds even put a downpayment on a house for Bell in Arizona from monies he made from card-show appearances (and didn't report as income). She claims he later threatened to kill her.


    • According to the excerpt, Anderson told an acquaintance who was wearing a wire in 2003 that: "The whole thing is, everything I've been doing, it's all undetectable. The stuff I have, we created it. You can't buy it anywhere else; you can't get it anywhere else. You can take [it] the day of [a drug test], pee, and it comes up clear.


    "See, like Marion Jones and them -- it's the same stuff they went to the Olympics with and they test them every f------ week. So that's why I know it works, so that's why I know we're not in trouble. So that's cool."


    • Bonds had immunity in grand jury testimony from everything but perjury. He claimed in testimony that he didn't know what Anderson was giving him. "At the end of [the] 2002, 2003 season, when I was going through [a bad period,] my dad died of cancer.... I was fatigued, just needed recovery you know, and this guy says, 'Try this cream, try this cream,'" he said. "And Greg came to the ballpark and said, you know, 'This will help you recover.' And he rubbed some cream on my arm ... gave me some flaxseed oil, man. It's like, 'Whatever, dude.' "

    Later, Bonds said: "You know me, I'm 39 years old. I'm dealing with pain. All I want is the pain relief, you know? ... I never asked Greg," according to the excerpt. "When he said it was flaxseed oil, I just said, 'Whatever.' It was in the ballpark ... in front of everybody. I mean, all the reporters, my teammates. I mean, they all saw it. I didn't hide it ... . You know, trainers come up to me and say, 'Hey, Barry, try this.' "


    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2358236
    "After my fourth season I asked for $43,000 and General Manager Ed Barrow told me, 'Young man, do you realize Lou Gehrig, a 16-year-man, is playing for only $44,000?' I said, Mr. Barrow, there is only one answer to that - Mr. Gehrig is terribly underpaid."- Yankees outfielder Joe DiMaggio

  • #2
    TonyStarks: Thoughts?

    Bonds was motivated to take performance-enhancing drugs by the Mark McGwire-Sammy Sosa chase of the single-season home run record in 1998

    pure silliness.


    [Bonds] also worked out extensively, sometimes spending 12 hours a day at the gym where he met the Weight Guru, who turned out to be Greg Anderson.
    incredibly, bonds and boyhood friend anderson meet at a gym.
    this makes very little sense to me.


    ...Anderson, his personal trainer who became a San Francisco Giants employee. ... and that Anderson himself was rumored to be a dealer.

    anderson became a giants employee merely to skirt a baseball-wide clubhouse rule.
    the giants not acting on rumor? what's up with that?


    The Giants... had no interest in learning whether Bonds was using steroids, either. Although it was illegal to use the drugs without a prescription, baseball had never banned steroids.
    apparently, not one of the 30 mlb teams initiated an investigation of one of its players.
    why single out the giants on this?


    Bonds had a relationship with Kimberly Bell, a woman he met in the Candlestick Park parking lot in 1994 while he was married. Bonds even put a downpayment on a house for Bell in Arizona from monies he made from card-show appearances (and didn't report as income). She claims he later threatened to kill her.
    the balco story originally was a federal tax case.
    when bonds' name surfaced, the feds realized that they might have a really big fish on their hands. as it is, much of bell's reported statements are either highly suspect or vague.
    the secretly taped recordings make it appear as though she had an agenda.


    According to the excerpt, Anderson told an acquaintance who was wearing a wire in 2003 that: "The whole thing is, everything I've been doing, it's all undetectable.
    the feds could not identify the tape voice, i am curious as to how fainaru-wada and williams did so.


    [Bonds] claimed in testimony that he didn't know what Anderson was giving him.
    Anderson served time rather than explain differently, so it seems that it is bonds' word against, uh, no one else's.

    overall, the book just might turn out to be a handy, tidy single source for quotes and what-not, but not for any new material.
    "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

    Comment


    • #3
      My condolences on Bonds

      How do you explain away the Balco documents?
      The detailed regimen of use and laundry list of substances?
      His flat out refusal to respond?
      I have an open mind but you don't have to wait for the last ember to go out before you admit the house burnt down.
      (AP)
      Bonds was using two undetectable designer steroids, informally known as the cream and the clear, plus insulin, human growth hormone and other performance enhancers by 2001, when he hit 73 home runs for the Giants to break Mark McGwire's single-season record of 70 set in 1998.
      BALCO, the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative run by Victor Conte, kept track of Bonds' drug use in detail, with folders and calendars that chronicled everything from schedules and quantities to his testosterone levels. Much of that information was obtained by federal agents when they raided the lab in September 2003.
      Does the occasional disinterested use of "flaxseed oil...whatever" defense still pass the smell test?
      On the other hand I applaud Bonds using juice to steal the HR record from another juice fraud.
      This is not just Bonds this is a league-wide scandal that makes the Black Sox look like a fraternity prank.
      They took a chance they wouldn't get caught and they did.
      Too bad, clean up the mess, move on.
      Ban the juiceheads you catch.
      Ban the former juiceheads who set meaningless juice records from the HOF.
      Selig needs to get his head out of the sand.
      The Phillies Barstool Lives!

      Comment


      • #4
        i can not explain away the balco documents. i do not even know what they are.
        same goes for the detailed regimen of use and list of substances.

        what is puzzling to me is this:
        if the documents are as claimed, why didn't the feds act upon the information? it seems to me that the whole mess would not be as messy had an adequate investigation by federal agents been made.

        also, "ban the juiceheads you catch" and "ban the former juiceheads who set meaningless juice records from the hof" seem conflicting.
        the former group contains players who are actually caught, the latter, those who are *known* to have used.
        it simply can not be that way.
        "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by west coast orange and black
          what is puzzling to me is this:
          if the documents are as claimed, why didn't the feds act upon the information? it seems to me that the whole mess would not be as messy had an adequate investigation by federal agents been made.
          also, "ban the juiceheads you catch" and "ban the former juiceheads who set meaningless juice records from the hof" seem conflicting.
          the former group contains players who are actually caught, the latter, those who are *known* to have used.
          it simply can not be that way.
          It's up to Bud Selig as the Commish to clean up baseball not the feds, Bart & Fay didn't have any problem getting all the fed docs in the Rose IRS case and drawing a quick and final conclusion.
          I really think this a case of Selig hoping Bonds wasn't returning due to injuries and stricter testing.

          I meant ban any current or former player from the HOF who can be shown to have used performance enhancing drugs not just Bonds. This goes to the heart of the sport.

          If the achievements are the cheap currency of drugs what value should be placed on them? If McGwire "pilled" his way past Ruth what did he actually do?

          Same with Bonds if this mountain of proof exists, end of story. I don't want to hear any more about how he thought it was "aspir-creme" or whatever other nonsense he says with a straight face.

          If the evidence doesn't exist clear Bonds from the top down once and for all.
          Its cards on the table time for baseball, its players and its records. Otherwise they're just the WWF.

          "I won't believe Bonds uses steroids until I inject him myself."
          As for the (AP) they wouldn't risk an enormous libel suit printing chapter and verse like that willy-nilly so if Bonds is innocent he'd sue them rather than see his legacy go up in smoke. I suspect factually that's not a viable option for him if these docs exist in such quantity and quality.

          If this was Mike Schmidt I'd be aghast but I'd still cut him loose. I feel bad for the people who've admired Bonds' accomplishments, enjoyed his career and defended him believing him innocent.

          Baseball is bigger than any single player except of course Ty Cobb!
          Last edited by ed hardiman; 03-07-2006, 11:21 PM.
          The Phillies Barstool Lives!

          Comment


          • #6
            Barry is running out of excuses...
            ~MOE

            Moonlight Graham
            ...one game, no at-bats...


            RisingApple.com

            Comment


            • #7
              while it is up to up to the commissioner's office to clean up baseball, the feds have been involved from the beginning. it is a federal investigation, aftter all, that started this whole balco thing.

              i am not saying that it is the responsibility of our federal government to clean up baseball, i am saying that the feds were involved from day one, so why didn't they follow through, all the way, wherever the evidence took them?
              maybe they did, which makes the fainaru-wada/williams story that much more, uh, interesting.

              you may very well be correct about selig hoping for the bonds problem to go away. but hoping that bonds would retire/not return due to injuries limits the entire drugs in baseball problem squarely on bonds' shoulders.
              that is simply ridiculous.

              ridiculous because we know that when baseball announced that its initial "pre-testing" round would commence, "5-7%" tested positive and triggered the 2003-06 testing agreement. where was the outrage then? where was the outcry?
              it was business as usual.

              banning any current or former player from the hof if it can be shown that performance enhancing drugs were used is cool with me. as you said, it goes to the heart of the sport.

              but, thus far, the only manner - for reasons both related and unrelated to baseball's rules - that a player can be shown to have used is to test positive.

              placing a value on numbers and accomplishments, it seems, is no longer just for historians. it is no longer a cut-and-dry "well, this number is higher than this one, so it must has more value." actually, it has not been just recently that numbers have become tainted. it is simply that steroids and newer/better drugs have enabled players - hundreds of players - to accomplish what their predecessors, armed with just a handful of greenies, could not.

              as for the news of the book: there really seems to be very little new stuff contained in it. the two reporters have made a big deal of the fact that a previously sealed document became unsealed, so maybe there is something there. probably not, though, as that was not the lead.

              instead, it is a compilation of expert witnesses, truthful testimony, anonymous sources, a scorned woman who sems to have an agenda, and anecdotal evidence. it may very well add up toa believeable story. a truthful one. but the two reporters, who took leave from work for more than two years to research and compile, have done themselves a huge disservice by taking the oprah route and offered their opinion as to why bonds used, instead of merely sticking to pure journalism.

              i feel that you ought not feel bad for the people who have admired bonds' play. there are many different kinds of people and many different kinds of fans. no need to take it so hard, man.

              some take bonds in with the other 750 other players and figure that ok, he cheated... along with hundreds of others. maybe he just figured out a way to cheat better than most others;
              lots of people do not care how bonds, specifically, accomplished what he has;
              then there are those who enjoy baseball, but do not include it amongst their passions. (yeah, that's weird to us.) to them, it's ho-hum news. and some are offended that this morning's newspaper has bonds splashed across the headlines even though we are at war, people are starving and that we have an ongoing health insurance crisis.

              and some of those offended are offended not just because of the pure crassness of running a baseball story as the headline, but because they, too, realize that bonds is not bigger than the game, and also that bonds is not the extent of baseball's ongoing drug problem.
              "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

              Comment


              • #8
                I'm all for Selig stepping in and shutting down Bonds.
                Anyone see the ESPN poll regarding Bonds? Seems like the people have spoken.

                -Does the news of what is in the book make you believe Bonds used steroids?
                83.3% I already thought he was a user

                -What would you most like to see this season?
                72.5% Bonds gets fed up with the media and retires

                -What do you believe about Bonds?
                85.8% He knowingly used steroids

                -Does Bonds belong in the Baseball Hall of Fame?
                62.3% No


                Bonds should walk away now.
                "After my fourth season I asked for $43,000 and General Manager Ed Barrow told me, 'Young man, do you realize Lou Gehrig, a 16-year-man, is playing for only $44,000?' I said, Mr. Barrow, there is only one answer to that - Mr. Gehrig is terribly underpaid."- Yankees outfielder Joe DiMaggio

                Comment


                • #9
                  bonds should walk away?
                  why do you believe ballplayers become ballplayers? for the fans?
                  that's a good one.

                  selig should make a move on bonds?
                  ironically, for selig to take a step towards bonds, to "shut him down", absent a positive drug test result, per the baseball rules in place, would be extremely unethical and probably illegal.

                  bonds to retire because of the media?
                  where have you been, man?
                  bonds is not ever going to tire of the media. he is actually fueled by the stories.
                  part of bonds being who he is is exactly because of his relationship with the media. the last thing that they want, by the way, is for bonds to leave them. what would they write about then?

                  lastly, i ought to have writen earlier that there are no new allegations rather, repeated ones.
                  "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by west coast orange and black
                    ...entire drugs in baseball problem squarely on bonds' shoulders...that is simply ridiculous
                    It doesn't that's what's so outrageous.
                    They hope a few big fish like a Palmerio & Bonds lightning rod the problem and safely discharge the effects of steroids into the ground.
                    Originally posted by west coast orange and black
                    ...it is simply that steroids and newer/better drugs have enabled players - hundreds of players - to accomplish what their predecessors, armed with just a handful of greenies, could not.
                    Yes and I think they should all be excised from the game and the record books. Not only that Selig knows amphetimine abuse dwarfs steroid abuse.
                    Originally posted by west coast orange and black
                    ...as for the news of the book: there really seems to be very little new stuff contained in it. the two reporters have made a big deal of the fact that a previously sealed document became unsealed, so maybe there is something there. probably not, though, as that was not the lead.
                    Characterizing unsealed admitted trial exhibits as old stuff?
                    Perhaps we interpret it differently but enumeration of specific steroids, amounts, duration and involvement in the regimen seems to be brand new.
                    Maybe the local media in SF has been ahead of the curve because no such news has been reported previously in regards to Bonds out here.
                    Its important to say trial by media allegation is unfair but if documents are piling up unrefuted except for a "who cares" by Bonds then any good faith reasonable doubt extended to him may quickly evaporate because seeing is believing.
                    Originally posted by west coast orange and black
                    ...instead, it is a compilation of expert witnesses, truthful testimony, anonymous sources, a scorned woman who sems to have an agenda, and anecdotal evidence. it may very well add up toa believeable story. a truthful one. but the two reporters, who took leave from work for more than two years to research and compile, have done themselves a huge disservice by taking the oprah route and offered their opinion as to why bonds used, instead of merely sticking to pure journalism.
                    Methodology may be suspect in regards to the Oprah-ization of news but that's the same fishbowl Bonds swims in to earn millions.
                    He wants it both ways fame fueled by press attention but only if it massages his ego.
                    It doesn't work that way.
                    Originally posted by west coast orange and black
                    ...some take bonds in with the other 750 other players and figure that ok, he cheated... along with hundreds of others. maybe he just figured out a way to cheat better than most others;
                    I think given the very inevitable, identifiable deterioration of chronic steroid abusers, like premature death, virulent cancers, connective tissue injuries, etc. you'll be able to tell pretty quickly who took steroids and who didn't even among those who retired ahead of the testing curve.
                    The HOF could easily adopt rules to extend the waiting period for the lump of players between 1990-2005 to address that issue.
                    Bud Selig under the "good of the game" clause has every right to zots Bonds out of baseball and the HOF and if those trial docs exist and have reached his office (as I suspect they have), Bonds will have little recourse to appeal for redress.
                    Originally posted by west coast orange and black
                    ...lots of people do not care how bonds, specifically, accomplished what he has;
                    Lots of people are indifferent to many things but the people who support baseball and the HOF by and large do care and given the competition baseball faces for the sports dollar can they afford to alienate a shrinking base or risk speeding the process through a devaluing of the very essence of the sport's appeal?
                    Originally posted by west coast orange and black
                    ...bonds is not bigger than the game, and also that bonds is not the extent of baseball's ongoing drug problem.
                    No, it's unfair to characterize the baseball drug swamp as such.
                    Bonds without the stench of PED's would've assumed the loftiest of positions among a pantheon of greats whose path he followed.
                    Instead in 1998 at 33 he's Frank Robinson with a chemistry set and a lack of scruples feeling neglected.
                    Still HOF but not Say Hey, Hammerin, or the Babe's equal.
                    The Phillies Barstool Lives!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hardiman....

                      Bravo on your post.



                      WC, I'm wondering are you 100% behind Bonds?
                      Are you telling me that there isn't a bit of doubt with you about Bonds & 'Roids?
                      "After my fourth season I asked for $43,000 and General Manager Ed Barrow told me, 'Young man, do you realize Lou Gehrig, a 16-year-man, is playing for only $44,000?' I said, Mr. Barrow, there is only one answer to that - Mr. Gehrig is terribly underpaid."- Yankees outfielder Joe DiMaggio

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Some people just refuse to wake up and smell the coffee. If you want to defend Bonds don't make a fool of yourself by giving "reasons". Just say "I don't care what he did, he's the greatest to me". I'd rather see blind loyalty than stupidity.

                        As for Selig cleaning up baseball you guys have to be kidding. Everything is subject to the Union's approval and Fehr & Orza have a different agenda. Any move Selig makes unilaterally that even remotely conflicts with theCBA will be fought tooth & nail regardless of merit.
                        Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Speaking for myself, it's not that I don't think Barry didn't use. What I choose to argue is that not all of his improvement is solely due to PED's. It's a known fact that Barry changed his game from 93 to 98, and the years that followed '98 may be chemically altered, but they also reflect a huge change in his swing and his training. So to argue that his numbers are entirely due to PED's isn't fair to Barry.

                          Frankly, I don't know any Giants fans who state unequivically that Barry never used.

                          KH14
                          “Well, I like to say I’m completely focused, right? I mean, the game’s on the line. It’s not like I’m thinking about what does barbecue Pop Chips and Cholula taste like. Because I already know that answer — it tastes friggin’ awesome!"--Brian Wilson

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by KHenry14
                            Speaking for myself, it's not that I don't think Barry didn't use. What I choose to argue is that not all of his improvement is solely due to PED's. It's a known fact that Barry changed his game from 93 to 98, and the years that followed '98 may be chemically altered, but they also reflect a huge change in his swing and his training. So to argue that his numbers are entirely due to PED's isn't fair to Barry.

                            Frankly, I don't know any Giants fans who state unequivically that Barry never used.

                            KH14
                            That is an interesting argumentation style you got there.
                            Who is arguing that his numbers are 'entirely due' to PEDs?
                            AND
                            The other part about 'who state unequivically' is another attempt at the same thing.
                            Last edited by johnny; 03-10-2006, 01:34 PM.
                            Johnny
                            Delusion, Life's Coping Mechanism

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by KCGHOST
                              Some people just refuse to wake up and smell the coffee. If you want to defend Bonds don't make a fool of yourself by giving "reasons". Just say "I don't care what he did, he's the greatest to me". I'd rather see blind loyalty than stupidity.

                              As for Selig cleaning up baseball you guys have to be kidding. Everything is subject to the Union's approval and Fehr & Orza have a different agenda. Any move Selig makes unilaterally that even remotely conflicts with theCBA will be fought tooth & nail regardless of merit.
                              You are so spot on with my thoughts vis a vi Selig although I do hope that he will do something substantive to avoid another verball arse-whuppin like he took at the 05 congressional hearings.
                              For the Bonds defenders if you get your way ask yourself when Barry passes Hank, how are you going to feel?
                              Johnny
                              Delusion, Life's Coping Mechanism

                              Comment

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