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  • #16
    Originally posted by KCGHOST
    Some people just refuse to wake up and smell the coffee. If you want to defend Bonds don't make a fool of yourself by giving "reasons". Just say "I don't care what he did, he's the greatest to me". I'd rather see blind loyalty than stupidity.

    As for Selig cleaning up baseball you guys have to be kidding. Everything is subject to the Union's approval and Fehr & Orza have a different agenda. Any move Selig makes unilaterally that even remotely conflicts with theCBA will be fought tooth & nail regardless of merit.
    KC...if Selig can act by involving Congress in the matter.
    As much as I would hate to do that, it's for the intregrity or whats left of it.

    The same way Selig threw Fehr under the bus with the Steriods testing debacle and extending the Suspension. In the end Selig had Check-Mated Fehr and the Union couldn't argue.
    "After my fourth season I asked for $43,000 and General Manager Ed Barrow told me, 'Young man, do you realize Lou Gehrig, a 16-year-man, is playing for only $44,000?' I said, Mr. Barrow, there is only one answer to that - Mr. Gehrig is terribly underpaid."- Yankees outfielder Joe DiMaggio

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    • #17
      Starks: WC, I'm wondering are you 100% behind Bonds?

      to ask means that you have not been paying attention, or that you have misinterpreted my posts.
      "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

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      • #18
        ghost, there is no need to refer to anyone here at bb-f a fool.

        it seems to me that you declare everyone who is not calling for bonds to:
        walk away from the game;
        be banned;
        be suspended for part of the regualr season;
        become inelligible for the hall -- are bonds defenders.

        the fact of the matter is that mlb has a work agreement in place.
        selig's hands are tied.
        baseball can not make a move on a player - any player - who is signed under the player's agreement. to do so would simply be inviting a player's strike.

        oh, c'mon, the players would strike over bonds?

        bonds is not the issue.
        remove the name of the particular individual. that is how law and rules are applied. that is the nature of unions.
        "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

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        • #19
          ...entire drugs in baseball problem squarely on bonds' shoulders...that is simply ridiculous
          It doesn't that's what's so outrageous.
          They hope a few big fish like a Palmerio & Bonds lightning rod the problem and safely discharge the effects of steroids into the ground.

          who is "they"?

          ...it is simply that steroids and newer/better drugs have enabled players - hundreds of players - to accomplish what their predecessors, armed with just a handful of greenies, could not.
          Yes and I think they should all be excised from the game and the record books. Not only that Selig knows amphetimine abuse dwarfs steroid abuse.
          no, you don't.
          i can say this because to clear the names of players who have used illegal drugs from the annals of the hall would create quite an echo chamber.
          some of the biggest names in baseball used illeagal drugs for extended lengths of time.

          ...as for the news of the book: there really seems to be very little new stuff contained in it. the two reporters have made a big deal of the fact that a previously sealed document became unsealed, so maybe there is something there. probably not, though, as that was not the lead.
          Characterizing unsealed admitted trial exhibits as old stuff?
          Perhaps we interpret it differently but enumeration of specific steroids, amounts, duration and involvement in the regimen seems to be brand new.
          Maybe the local media in SF has been ahead of the curve because no such news has been reported previously in regards to Bonds out here.
          Its important to say trial by media allegation is unfair but if documents are piling up unrefuted except for a "who cares" by Bonds then any good faith reasonable doubt extended to him may quickly evaporate because seeing is believing.

          i said "seems to be very little new stuff".
          the "enumeration of specific steroids, amounts, duration and involvement in the regimen" is all repeated information. possibly you missed it. here at ground zero in the san francisco bay area, nearly all 200+ articles written by fainaru-wada and williams have been printed in the local paper.
          i have read 'em all.
          also, i have nearly 3/4 of the book read, and thus far, it has been re-hash.

          ...instead, it is a compilation of expert witnesses, truthful testimony, anonymous sources, a scorned woman who sems to have an agenda, and anecdotal evidence. it may very well add up to a believeable story. a truthful one. but the two reporters, who took leave from work for more than two years to research and compile, have done themselves a huge disservice by taking the oprah route and offered their opinion as to why bonds used, instead of merely sticking to pure journalism.
          Methodology may be suspect in regards to the Oprah-ization of news but that's the same fishbowl Bonds swims in to earn millions.
          He wants it both ways fame fueled by press attention but only if it massages his ego.
          It doesn't work that way.

          bonds in a fishbowl has absolutely nothing to do with the departure of the reporters from journalism. they are two separate issues entirely.
          the reporters purport to know the *why* of the story, yet did not speak with bonds. that is irresponsible journalism. that is swinging over to sensationalism.

          ...some take bonds in with the other 750 other players and figure that ok, he cheated... along with hundreds of others. maybe he just figured out a way to cheat better than most others;
          I think given the very inevitable, identifiable deterioration of chronic steroid abusers, like premature death, virulent cancers, connective tissue injuries, etc. you'll be able to tell pretty quickly who took steroids and who didn't even among those who retired ahead of the testing curve.
          The HOF could easily adopt rules to extend the waiting period for the lump of players between 1990-2005 to address that issue.
          Bud Selig under the "good of the game" clause has every right to zots Bonds out of baseball and the HOF and if those trial docs exist and have reached his office (as I suspect they have), Bonds will have little recourse to appeal for redress.

          why the corraling of users and chronic users? there's no "a little bit pregnant" on this issue. either someone used, or did not.

          i believe that the hall will not enact new guidelines that includes an extended waiting period. they do not want to be viewed as hypocritical, which is exactly what would occur.

          the "good of the game" clause can not be used to punish bonds. the clause is reserved for situations that the rules of baseball does not address. but the rules of baseball clearly do address the current situation: onlt a positive drug test result can dictate action taken against a player.

          ...lots of people do not care how bonds, specifically, accomplished what he has;
          Lots of people are indifferent to many things but the people who support baseball and the HOF by and large do care and given the competition baseball faces for the sports dollar can they afford to alienate a shrinking base or risk speeding the process through a devaluing of the very essence of the sport's appeal?
          i can go along with this, mostly.

          ...bonds is not bigger than the game, and also that bonds is not the extent of baseball's ongoing drug problem.
          No, it's unfair to characterize the baseball drug swamp as such.
          Bonds without the stench of PED's would've assumed the loftiest of positions among a pantheon of greats whose path he followed.
          Instead in 1998 at 33 he's Frank Robinson with a chemistry set and a lack of scruples feeling neglected.
          Still HOF but not Say Hey, Hammerin, or the Babe's equal.

          bonds ineviatably gets compared to baseball's greats, and the forgone conclusion is that bonds, while being hof material, pales in comparison.
          everyone is entitled to an opinion. but what is fact, not an opinion, is that some of those named are players who used illegal drugs.

          this is why i fully expect to read and hear about players former and current rally 'round bonds. the situation is: did he use? yeah. but so did over a thousand players. the major leaguers know what's up. and they have all along.
          Last edited by west coast orange and black; 03-10-2006, 08:50 PM.
          "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

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          • #20
            I can't read your grey typeface, Tony. It's too hard on my eyes.
            "I think about baseball when I wake up in the morning. I think about it all day and I dream about it at night. The only time I don't think about it is when I'm playing it."
            Carl Yastrzemski

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            • #21
              ok, or darker? :o
              "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by west coast orange and black
                who is "they"?
                Selig, his cronies, & the owners.
                Originally posted by west coast orange and black
                ...no, you don't.
                i can say this because to clear the names of players who have used illegal drugs from the annals of the hall would create quite an echo chamber.some of the biggest names in baseball used illeagal drugs for extended lengths of time.
                The number of PED abusers in the HOF is nil.
                I hold your remarks about guilt to the same standard I provide Bonds.
                Please show me documentary or medical proof the HOF is thusly infested.
                If your assertion is solely in regards to amphetamines you're probably closer to correct but does anyone conflate that issue with PED's?
                Originally posted by west coast orange and black
                ...i said "seems to be very little new stuff". the "enumeration of specific steroids, amounts, duration and involvement in the regimen" is all repeated information. possibly you missed it. here at ground zero in the san francisco bay area, nearly all 200+ articles written by fainaru-wada and williams have been printed in the local paper.i have read 'em all.also, i have nearly 3/4 of the book read, and thus far, it has been re-hash...instead, it is a compilation of expert witnesses, truthful testimony, anonymous sources, a scorned woman who sems to have an agenda, and anecdotal evidence. it may very well add up to a believeable story. a truthful one. but the two reporters, who took leave from work for more than two years to research and compile, have done themselves a huge disservice by taking the oprah route and offered their opinion as to why bonds used, instead of merely sticking to pure journalism.
                I rely on your judgement in that regard as I live 3000 miles away where it hasn't been beaten like a dead horse.
                Of course I've only read the SI article and it seems a straight forward factual recounting and while it may be pure conjecture as to why Bonds used steroids I got the impression the author's were recounting remarks made to Bell by Bonds.
                Is she the woman scorned? Maybe. But I think they'd be foolish if she was a shrill harpy out to get Bonds at all costs to depend on her alone.
                I'd get a better sense of their bias as writers if they quoted all the tapes she made of him making threats then you could say it was a pure hatchet job.
                I care only to know what he did that may've altered what happened on the field.
                I do however have a different position on criminal trial docs.
                They would be irrefutable and not based on allegations, suppositions or hearsay.
                Originally posted by west coast orange and black
                ...why the corraling of users and chronic users? there's no "a little bit pregnant" on this issue. either someone used, or did not.
                Selfishly in the pursuit of glory or merely larger contracts these players took a big fat dump on our national pastime which admittedly is not perfect but it has held certain truths, like records which mean something in the achievement, and something in the breaking.
                Would Ripken be all that admired if it turned out he'd secretly shot himself up with a cocktail of drugs and PED's the last seven years of his career that allowed him to break Gehrig's record without which he simply couldn't have?
                Originally posted by west coast orange and black
                ...i believe that the hall will not enact new guidelines that includes an extended waiting period. they do not want to be viewed as hypocritical, which is exactly what would occur.
                We differ on this point where I believe the Lords of Baseball who ultimately control the game and the HOF will do anything to protect their long term investment. Being hypocritical is the coin of the realm for them.
                Originally posted by west coast orange and black
                ...the "good of the game" clause can not be used to punish bonds. the clause is reserved for situations that the rules of baseball does not address. but the rules of baseball clearly do address the current situation: onlt a positive drug test result can dictate action taken against a player.
                Not so that agreement doesn't excuse lying to the Commissioner in the ordinary exercise of his authority to regulate behavior detrimental to the game and I would suggest the eventuality and process I propose has already started:
                Originally posted by Chicago Tribune, KC Star, Seattle Times
                ...in a meeting held in April of 2004, The Chicago Tribune, citing a "highly placed baseball source," said Selig offered Bonds leniency from any baseball punishment if he used any illicit performance-enhancing substance and came clean about it.
                Selig told Bonds the consequences would be "much worse" if he professed innocence and later was revealed as a steroid user.
                It appears they will be talking again.
                Since that meeting, baseball security officials have been "monitoring" the Bonds case, though top executives strongly denied they had begun a formal investigation when the New York Daily News reported that one was under way.
                The basis of such a penalty would be Bonds lying in that meeting being detrimental to Selig's fundamental excercise of responsibility and authority over baseball as Commissioner not failing a steroid test.
                I still maintain if no such proof exists in any verifiable form Selig should man up and exonerate him.
                Originally posted by west coast orange and black
                bonds ineviatably gets compared to baseball's greats, and the forgone conclusion is that bonds, while being hof material, pales in comparison. everyone is entitled to an opinion. but what is fact, not an opinion, is that some of those named are players who used illegal drugs.
                Name one.
                I would ask you provide actual documents like those neccessary to impeach Bonds.
                You can't just fling mud and hope it sticks, I haven't.
                If Bonds manned up admitting guilt at any point prior to now that he took PED's in a misguided attempt to keep pace with other players mysteriously hitting more HR's in the last nickel of their careers I would've said he's still HOF.
                Because nobody's perfect.
                But now the only reason he'd do it is to keep the record of beating 3 players I defy anyone to characterize as addicted to anything.
                Anyone who would is an idiot.
                They are the platinum standard of excellence in baseball.
                Anyone who tries to cheat their way past them deserves absolute and total exile if caught.
                What will happen when people realize Bonds cheated his way past his own Godfather, Willie Mays?
                If Bonds fits that category, good riddance.
                I only expect him to get what he's earned either way.
                No more and certainly no less.
                Innocent, great.
                Guilty, gone.
                Some say he should walk right now before he does pass Ruth and Aaron.
                If he's guilty, that single greatest act of contrition would restore him in my eyes to HOF worthy and in the eyes of the fans who do care about the game.
                Again forgiveness asked for with true contrition is an unimpeachable sign of character.
                I believe he's far too stubbornly selfish, stupid & greedy to do that even if he did turn out to be guilty as hell.
                Originally posted by west coast orange and black
                ...this is why i fully expect to read and hear about players former and current rally 'round bonds. the situation is: did he use? yeah. but so did over a thousand players. the major leaguers know what's up. and they have all along.
                I don't think Bonds has endeared himself to enough players to hold much of a rally.
                That being said Cobb was a total 24k gold plated S.O.B. til the day he died, and I don't care.
                So there's a place for S.O.B.'s in the HOF.
                It's looking Dick Nixon grim though for Mr.Bonds...
                Last edited by ed hardiman; 03-11-2006, 06:28 AM.
                The Phillies Barstool Lives!

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by west coast orange and black
                  ok, or darker? :o
                  That's good..I can see that no problem.

                  God....I hate getting old.
                  "I think about baseball when I wake up in the morning. I think about it all day and I dream about it at night. The only time I don't think about it is when I'm playing it."
                  Carl Yastrzemski

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    who is "they"?
                    Selig, his cronies, & the owners.
                    oh, no doubt that most in baseball wishes that this thing just went away. 'cept, the problem is a deeply-rooted one that has been around for decades.


                    no, you don't don't.
                    The number of PED abusers in the HOF is nil.
                    Please show me documentary or medical proof the HOF is thusly infested.
                    If your assertion is solely in regards to amphetamines you're probably closer to correct but does anyone conflate that issue with PED's?

                    1. the number is not nil. it is significant.
                    2. providing "documentary or medical proof" would be more difficult to provide than exhuming a corpse. c'mon. we're talkin' about what players consumed. sophistication of medical record-keeping is relatively recent only.


                    ...I've only read the SI article and it seems a straight forward factual recounting and while it may be pure conjecture as to why Bonds used steroids I got the impression the author's were recounting remarks made to Bell by Bonds.
                    what does it tell you that the feds all but dismissed bell's remarks?


                    I do however have a different position on criminal trial docs.
                    They would be irrefutable and not based on allegations, suppositions or hearsay.

                    criminal trial docs do carry weight, yes. but sworn testimony can be impeached no matter the venue. also, none of the documents used by the two reporters are criminal trial documents.


                    ...why the corraling of users and chronic users? there's no "a little bit pregnant" on this issue. either someone used, or did not.
                    Selfishly in the pursuit of glory or merely larger contracts...
                    agreed.


                    Would Ripken be all that admired...?
                    would he:
                    "be all that admired?" no.
                    have his records expunged? no.
                    be banned from the hall? no.

                    ...i believe that the hall will not enact new guidelines...
                    We differ on this point...
                    part of protecting their investment is not to allow news that would tarnish the names of those already enshrined to betarnished.
                    a full, complete investigation of drugs in baseball would do just that.
                    we, the fans would not be able to handle it.


                    bonds ineviatably gets compared to baseball's greats, and the forgone conclusion is that bonds, while being hof material, pales in comparison. everyone is entitled to an opinion. but what is fact, not an opinion, is that some of those named are players who used illegal drugs.
                    Name one.
                    I would ask you provide actual documents like those neccessary to impeach Bonds.
                    You can't just fling mud and hope it sticks, I haven't.

                    what's done is done.
                    no way will i join the cavalcade and start sniping at retired players by name. look at what some are already doing tomike schmidt.

                    don't believe me if you care not to. that's cool.
                    but i am extremely confidant that i stand on firm ground on this issue.
                    i am going on what many players have confided. 6 hofers included.


                    Anyone who tries to cheat their way past them deserves absolute and total exile if caught.
                    i do not agreed. the player work agreement controls the matter.


                    What will happen when people realize Bonds cheated his way past his own Godfather, Willie Mays?
                    mays ended with 660. bonds has 708.
                    ask people and they will tell you.


                    ...this is why i fully expect to read and hear about players former and current rally 'round bonds. the situation is: did he use? yeah. but so did over a thousand players. the major leaguers know what's up. and they have all along.
                    I don't think Bonds has endeared himself to enough players to hold much of a rally.
                    it is not bonds around whom they would be rallying. it is the abstract idea. that is the strength of the union. as goes one, so go them all.
                    remove bonds from the argument. it takes some doing, but go ahead. now, absent an assult on the record books and encroaching hallowed ground, what would be the reason to expel the player? none.

                    the rules are not set up for the particular circumstances of one individula player. i understand the upsetting and uncomfortable and irritating and awful news, but baseball's rules are in place for reasons.
                    "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by west coast orange and black
                      who is "they"?
                      oh, no doubt that most in baseball wishes that this thing just went away. 'cept, the problem is a deeply-rooted one that has been around for decades.
                      1. the number is not nil. it is significant.
                      2. providing "documentary or medical proof" would be more difficult to provide than exhuming a corpse. c'mon.we're talkin' about what players consumed. sophistication of medical record-keeping is relatively recent only.
                      Your actual standard of proof is now mere assertion or innuendo?
                      Who else do you believe used PED's in the HOF?
                      Lou Gehrig? Ted Williams? Willie Mays?
                      Hospital charts, ongoing medical treatment records, progress reports, are not a recent innovation.
                      Originally posted by west coast orange and black
                      what does it tell you that the feds all but dismissed bell's remarks?
                      I don't give any weight to her statements just they simply provided the basis for the author's conclusion Bonds started using steroids out of jealousy over the attention McGwire got chemically breaking the record.
                      Originally posted by west coast orange and black
                      ...criminal trial docs do carry weight, yes. but sworn testimony can be impeached no matter the venue. also, none of the documents used by the two reporters are criminal trial documents.
                      The direct quotes used by the authors indicate they are asked and answered sworn grand jury testimony given directly by Bonds in a criminal matter.
                      Additionally the IRS Memorandum while redacted is available on the net.
                      I can post links to it, the SI article in its entirety and the direct page quoting the grand jury testimony should you require it but I assume you are well conversant with it from your posts.
                      Originally posted by west coast orange and black
                      ...part of protecting their investment is not to allow news that would tarnish the names of those already enshrined to be tarnished.a full, complete investigation of drugs in baseball would do just that. we, the fans would not be able to handle it.
                      You've not provided one iota of evidence to back up your extraordinary claim the HOF is riddled with PED users.
                      Consequently, as much as I'd like to, I can't give it any weight.
                      Second the milk is spilt, and the cat out of the bag as far as fans are concerned.
                      Fans will just have to put their big girl panties on and deal with it.
                      It's not like suddenly discovering Joe DiMaggio was a serial rapist ex-nazi spy who sold nuclear secrets to Russia before he assassinated JFK in Dallas to get even for JFK and Bobby killing Marylin Monroe in '62.
                      Originally posted by west coast orange and black
                      what's done is done.no way will i join the cavalcade and start sniping at retired players by name. look at what some are already doing to mike schmidt.
                      What are you talking about?
                      Schmidt, the best 3rd sacker who ever played, has never been accused of anything remotely associated with taking this crap.
                      Schmidt's opinion is diametrically opposed to mine on steroid use in the 1990's:
                      Originally posted by Mike Schmidt
                      "Let me go out on a limb and say that if I had played during that era I would have taken steroids... We all have these things we deal with in life, and I'm surely not going to sit here and say to you guys, 'I wouldn't have done that.
                      Originally posted by west coast orange and black
                      don't believe me if you care not to. that's cool.but i am extremely confidant that i stand on firm ground on this issue.i am going on what many players have confided. 6 hofers included.
                      You're entitled to your opinion which I respect, I hope I don't seem to be hacking on you with my inability to understand your reluctance to simply provide a verifiable example of what you clearly believe true.
                      Originally posted by west coast orange and black
                      mays ended with 660. bonds has 708. ask people and they will tell you.
                      Really? Bonds hit 660 prior to his alleged steroid abuse beginning in 1998?
                      I thought it was in 2004...
                      I better get my calendar fixed.
                      Originally posted by west coast orange and black
                      ...it is not bonds around whom they would be rallying. it is the abstract idea. that is the strength of the union. as goes one, so go them all.
                      Pardon me for laughing at the notion a sackful of millionaire ballplayers are a real union.
                      Originally posted by west coast orange and black
                      ...remove bonds from the argument. it takes some doing, but go ahead. now, absent an assult on the record books and encroaching hallowed ground, what would be the reason to expel the player? none.the rules are not set up for the particular circumstances of one individula player. i understand the upsetting and uncomfortable and irritating and awful news, but baseball's rules are in place for reasons.
                      Forget Bonds. The reason for expulsion is any player who knowingly obstructs the Baseball Commissioner in the performance of his duty to uphold the best interests of the game does not deserve a place in its record books or HOF.
                      Additionally the Commissioner clearly indicated drastic consequences should a player be caught lying in such an inquiry.
                      Selig has every authority to demand an answer from the player not designed to materially alter the decision he makes in regards to Baseball's best interest over something like steroid tainted records.
                      That player could simply refuse to answer rather than lie.
                      In which case Selig should've acted then.
                      Nevertheless you insist the player's agreement obviates any transgression by a single player no matter how egregious or detrimental to the survival of the game.
                      How do you possibly conflate the two issues?
                      These players black marketeered a desired outcome with no regard for the consequences to other players like Albert Pujols who Bonds may have deked out of an MVP or record holders like Maris or Aaron.
                      Baseball as an institution has 3 distinct fully vested parties:
                      Owners, players and fans.
                      Lacking any one of the three there would be no MLB.
                      It does not solely belong to players and their short term labor agreement.
                      Your argument the player's labor agreement trumps all is unconvincing and arbitrary.
                      Nor is the sport called Bondsball.
                      Where's your fan's sense of outrage chemically stripping Hammerin' Hank Aaron of his rightfully earned distinction for hitting the most boxes of waffles in a Horatio Algier career, beginning in the segregated Negro Leagues and ending at the pinnacle of MLB in the HOF, wouldn't be the worst slap-in-the-face injustice baseball finally perpetrated on him?

                      "Any way you look at it, it's wrong..."
                      Hammerin' Hank Aaron on steroid abuse
                      The Phillies Barstool Lives!

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