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  • #16
    Having never seen Honus Wagner play, and by just looking at stats, it seems like he wasn't even close to being the shortstop that Omar was...

    -Omar played 700 (and counting) more games at the position than him
    -Omar fields .985 while Wagner is at about .940
    -Errors at the position are an astronomical 181 for Omar (only about 11 a year) to 676 for Wagner (about 58 a year)

    We know Wagner is a better hitter, and your favorite but I wouldn't say he is a better SS.

    And as far as going into the HOF, I would think he belongs (especially since Ozzie is in there). I doubt he would wear a Mariner's hat, since he was only there for about 5 years, and 11 with Cleveland.
    "Candlestick made me a man" -Will Clark

    "Real Giants fans loved them BEFORE and AFTER Barry Bonds came along"

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    • #17
      While his credentials are certainly as good as Ozzie's, he's no where near as well known as Ozzie was, and that's going to hurt Omar's chances for the HOF. And he has two other hurdles...compared to some other SS's who will becoming eligible, he doesn't hist anywhere near as well as Jeter, Larkin, Rodriguez, Tejada etc. And the fact that the HOF rarely rewards defensive prowess...Ozzie and Mazeroski are two exceptions, but there aren't many. Just ask Keith Hernandez about that.
      “Well, I like to say I’m completely focused, right? I mean, the game’s on the line. It’s not like I’m thinking about what does barbecue Pop Chips and Cholula taste like. Because I already know that answer — it tastes friggin’ awesome!"--Brian Wilson

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Jermz View Post
        Having never seen Honus Wagner play, and by just looking at stats, it seems like he wasn't even close to being the shortstop that Omar was...

        -Omar played 700 (and counting) more games at the position than him
        -Omar fields .985 while Wagner is at about .940
        -Errors at the position are an astronomical 181 for Omar (only about 11 a year) to 676 for Wagner (about 58 a year)


        We know Wagner is a better hitter, and your favorite but I wouldn't say he is a better SS.

        And as far as going into the HOF, I would think he belongs (especially since Ozzie is in there). I doubt he would wear a Mariner's hat, since he was only there for about 5 years, and 11 with Cleveland.
        Come on Jermz, I know your baseball history better than that. Fielding percentage is a useless stat especially considering the huge difference in gloves and playing fields from Wagner's time to Omar's time. Give Omar the 1910s era mitt below and see how well he does in fielding percentage?
        Attached Files
        Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
          Give Omar the 1910s era mitt below and see how well he does in fielding percentage?
          You should see the clip of Omar bare-handing a grounder to seal Chris Bosio's no-hitter in 1993. That was awesome.

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          • #20
            wags: Give Omar the 1910s era mitt below and see how well he does in fielding percentage.

            vizquel would simply field bare-handed more often.
            he has said that one of the reasons he does so as frequently as he does is that the official scorer is less likely to rule an error if the play is not successful.
            "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
              Vizquel was done last year. He can't hit anymore. It is pointless to make Omar the starting shortstop at this point.
              How's that crow taste so far?

              Guy was the main factor in the 2 Giants wins here at Coors.

              BTW/ There isn't no way Wagner could field as good as Omar with a big glove, little glove and no glove. You can believe what you want but the only other SS close to Omar is Ozzie.>long career>>>IMO

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Old Sweater View Post
                How's that crow taste so far?
                Whatever dude. He's been back what 10 days? Let's see how where he ends up at the end of the season. I will remember this post and remind you of it. Oh, and by the way he's hitting .188 (3/18) in his last six games. He's had 2 three hit games. In the other NINE games he's hitting .192. Next time you should check the facts before you make pointless statements.

                BTW/ There isn't no way Wagner could field as good as Omar with a big glove, little glove and no glove. You can believe what you want but the only other SS close to Omar is Ozzie.>long career>>>IMO
                I see you must have seen Honus play in person, right? Your statement doesn't even make sense. You can believe what you want but your argument is is pretty weak. Ever hear of Marty Marion? Louis Aparicio? And I never argued that Wagner was a better defensive player than Omar. My point was we just can't compare fielding percentage. That makes no sense.
                Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by west coast orange and black View Post
                  wags: Give Omar the 1910s era mitt below and see how well he does in fielding percentage.

                  vizquel would simply field bare-handed more often.
                  he has said that one of the reasons he does so as frequently as he does is that the official scorer is less likely to rule an error if the play is not successful.
                  Omar will snare a rope to his right with his bare hand? The balls and ballfields during the Dead Ball era were crap compared to the balls and ballfields today. Omar wouldn't have nice manicured fields or artificial turf, of a big glove to make many of his signature moves.
                  Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                    Whatever dude. He's been back what 10 days? Let's see how where he ends up at the end of the season. I will remember this post and remind you of it. Oh, and by the way he's hitting .188 (3/18) in his last six games. He's had 2 three hit games. In the other NINE games he's hitting .192. Next time you should check the facts before you make pointless statements.


                    I see you must have seen Honus play in person, right? Your statement doesn't even make sense. You can believe what you want but your argument is is pretty weak. Ever hear of Marty Marion? Louis Aparicio? And I never argued that Wagner was a better defensive player than Omar. My point was we just can't compare fielding percentage. That makes no sense.
                    Whatever Dandy.

                    D wise you just can't compare them unless Honus is better the the SS's I have been watching since the latter 50's and knew what I was seeing since the 60's.

                    Omar would have been big time in the dead ball era with his style of play and not to shabby in the modern time's of the big SS's.

                    Omar Vizquel, if he doesn't miss a game, will break Luis Aparicio's record for most games played by a shortstop on Sunday.

                    Aparicio played 2,583 games at short, and Vizquel is entering the Marlins series in Florida at 2,581.

                    Vizquel already is an all-time great shortstop. He has 11 Gold Gloves, second to Ozzie Smith's 13. He has the most double plays by a shortstop, 1,660, and highest fielding percentage among shortstops with at least 1,000 games, .984.

                    Though he's known specifically as a defensive shortstop, he's no slouch at the plate. Among shortstops with at least 1,000 games, he's seventh in hits (2,609), ninth in runs (1,344), 10th in doubles (419), and 12th in stolen bases (381).


                    http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/teams/sfo

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Old Sweater View Post
                      Whatever Dandy.

                      D wise you just can't compare them unless Honus is better the the SS's I have been watching since the latter 50's and knew what I was seeing since the 60's.
                      According to your CP you were born in October 1952. I wouldn't trust the 40 year old memories of a young teenager watching baseball in the mid 1960s through the eyes of a teenager. The human memory is quite inaccurate most of the time.

                      Omar would have been big time in the dead ball era with his style of play and not to shabby in the modern time's of the big SS's.
                      Mere speculation. A lot of the enviroment that helped make Omar such a great glove man would not be available to him in the Dead Ball era. That would include not having the following:

                      1) large modern gloves
                      2) Well kepted grass fields and artificial turf
                      3) Clean balls
                      Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        wags: Give Omar the 1910s era mitt below and see how well he does in fielding percentage.

                        wcoab: vizquel would simply field bare-handed more often.

                        wags: Omar will snare a rope to his right with his bare hand?

                        now every ball hit vizquel's way is a laser?
                        dude.

                        Omar wouldn't have nice manicured fields or artificial turf, of a big glove to make many of his signature moves.

                        it is at least very likely that viquel would succeed at short in any era.
                        "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by west coast orange and black View Post
                          wags: Give Omar the 1910s era mitt below and see how well he does in fielding percentage.

                          wcoab: vizquel would simply field bare-handed more often.

                          wags: Omar will snare a rope to his right with his bare hand?

                          now every ball hit vizquel's way is a laser?
                          dude.

                          Omar wouldn't have nice manicured fields or artificial turf, of a big glove to make many of his signature moves.

                          it is at least very likely that viquel would succeed at short in any era.
                          I have no doubt Omar would have succeeded in any era. I'm just saying that he Dead Ball era would have bee a very different environment to play in. Some of his "highlight" plays would not have been possible given the gloves of the Dead Ball era. He absolutely would have had more errors simply because of the poor gloves and poor infields of the time.
                          Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            [QUOTE=Jermz;1195697]Having never seen Honus Wagner play, and by just looking at stats, it seems like he wasn't even close to being the shortstop that Omar was...

                            -Omar played 700 (and counting) more games at the position than him
                            -Omar fields .985 while Wagner is at about .940
                            -Errors at the position are an astronomical 181 for Omar (only about 11 a year) to 676 for Wagner (about 58 a year)





                            Obviously, there is no way to know who would be the better fielder if they both played under the same conditions. Here are a couple of things to consider:

                            Vizquel's career fielding runs above average - adjusted (RAA2) is 42 compared to 157 for Wagner. And that includes the advantage Vizquel has in games played as a SS. Big advantage in FRAA2 for Honus. Wagner's fielding percentage is 1.4% above league average compared to 1.2% for Vizquel. Slight edge to Honus. Wagner's range factor was 12.9% above league average compared to 0.04% for Vizquel (based on range factor per 9 innings for Vizquel). Big advantage for Honus.

                            Do stats prove that Honus would be a better fielder than Vizquel if they were both born on the same day? No. It does show that Wagner, compared to his peers, was a bit better defensively than Vizquel compared to his peers.

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                            • #29
                              It's obvious Omar is done as a major league hitter, batting .197 currently. I suspect this season will be his last. I hope the Giants are smart and give him a job within the Giants' organization.
                              Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                              Comment

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