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  • #16
    Originally posted by west coast orange and black
    wags: Who is _____?

    either you know who _____ is, or you don't.
    but, c'mon, man, he exhibited more physical signs of use than just about anyone else.
    Ok, I don't know who _____ is. Is it Benito Santiago? Kevin Mitchell? Bobby Estalella? Who? You can PM me is you wish...
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Whitesoxnut
      How many 35yo linebackers have put on 15 to 20 lbs of muscle in a 3 month off-season before? At least after the 'roid ban? While were at it how many 35yo linebackers are there? lastly how many 35yo linebackers have come back from a 3 month off-season with such increases in power?

      Bonds weighs 230 pounds. That is really not all that big (my room mate weighs 215 and he is 6'1" -- Bonds is 6'2"). NFL lineman are sometimes forced to gain 60-70 pounds in training camp. The book said that Bonds started using prior to the 1998 season. In the 1998 season his homerun total dropped from 40 to 37. In 1999 it dropped to 34. In 2000 he had a power and average surge. His HR total went to 49 and his BA climbed 40 points. And when people say he averaged 50+ homers from 2000 to 2004 that is a little deceiving. He only actually hit 50 homers once in his career (2001 - 73). If you think this is "damning" evidence that he had to have been on roids for this power surge to have happened, then you must also think that Roger Maris was on the juice in 1961. What about Babe Ruth in 1920 and 1921 -- then again in 1927. Where does it end? Andruw Jones gained some weight and hit 51 homers last year, what about him? Or Adrian Beltre in 2004? Or how about Albert Pujols in...NOW!!

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      • #18
        Originally posted by ichiro262
        Bonds weighs 230 pounds. That is really not all that big (my room mate weighs 215 and he is 6'1" -- Bonds is 6'2"). NFL lineman are sometimes forced to gain 60-70 pounds in training camp. The book said that Bonds started using prior to the 1998 season. In the 1998 season his homerun total dropped from 40 to 37. In 1999 it dropped to 34. In 2000 he had a power and average surge. His HR total went to 49 and his BA climbed 40 points. And when people say he averaged 50+ homers from 2000 to 2004 that is a little deceiving. He only actually hit 50 homers once in his career (2001 - 73). If you think this is "damning" evidence that he had to have been on roids for this power surge to have happened, then you must also think that Roger Maris was on the juice in 1961. What about Babe Ruth in 1920 and 1921 -- then again in 1927. Where does it end? Andruw Jones gained some weight and hit 51 homers last year, what about him? Or Adrian Beltre in 2004? Or how about Albert Pujols in...NOW!!
        Come on ichiro262! This can't be your argument. Bonds played fewer games in 1999 and 2000.

        Here are Bonds HR totals:

        1996: 40 HRs in 158 games
        1997: 42 HRs in 159 games
        1998: 37 HRs in 156 games
        1999: 34 HRs in 102 games (would be 53 HRs in 159 games)
        2000: 49 HRs in 143 games (would be 54 HRs in 159 games)

        Bonds had a huge surge in power from 1998 to 1999, exactly when he supposedly took PEDs.
        Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 06-12-2006, 07:04 AM.
        Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

        Comment


        • #19
          I realize he played fewer games, that's kind of the point. Steroids, if anything, are supposed to help you SHORT TERM. Example: Matt Lawton took them in NY, and hit a homer and a double the next day!! The steroids would have been most effective during the 1998 and 1999 season, and he would not have been able to keep playing relatively injury free until 2004. People say his injury problems now are "obvious" proof of his steroid usage -- but he is 42 years old!! I guess any player who has his career ended by injury (almost every player) was on roids.

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          • #20
            Roger was 27yo when he did it. Bonds was 37yo when he had his record year In 1920 the Babe was 25yo, in '21 he was 26yo, and in '27 he was 32yo. Which is generally when it ends. Its true Babe went on to hit 54 HRs at 33yo and a few years of 40s afterwards. But the Babe was more a pure home run hitter. In an era where they didnt really exist.

            To get a real feel for Bonds 'roid power you really have to look at his home runs per at bats, minus walks.

            If you think this is "damning" evidence that he had to have been on roids for this power surge to have happened, then you must also think that Roger Maris was on the juice in 1961. What about Babe Ruth in 1920 and 1921 -- then again in 1927. Where does it end?
            "Let me start by telling you this: I have never used steroids. Period. I don't know how to say it any more clearly than that. Never." :hyper:

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            • #21
              I can only assume that you think Andruw Jones, Adrian Beltre and Albert Pujols were or are on steroids, because you didn't say anything about their numbers.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by ichiro262
                I can only assume that you think Andruw Jones, Adrian Beltre and Albert Pujols were or are on steroids, because you didn't say anything about their numbers.
                I can only assume Jones, Beltre, or Pujols, dont have a minefield of evidence pointing to the fact they did use juice. You must be a lawyer ichiro , or ought to be. Your very ingenious at misdirection. For the objective fan? This heavy juicing pattern by Bonds doesn't exactly need a Sherlock Holmes to get to the truth.
                "Let me start by telling you this: I have never used steroids. Period. I don't know how to say it any more clearly than that. Never." :hyper:

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                • #23
                  [QUOTE=Honus Wagner Rules]I've come to a difficult decision but I've decided to not attend any Giants' games until Barry Bonds is no longer a member of the S.F. Giants.

                  I respect your decision, HWR. I suppose I have taken the more hypocritical route of going to games, rooting for the team, but just not Barry. Like many of you, I was at the park when he hit 715. I stood, I watched, I didn't applaud, and felt very conflicted about not cheering for a Giant. I tried to rationalize my actions ("he had 850 more at bats and managed to hit one more home run than a pitcher - big deal"), but realized that I would just have to acknowledge that it was very conflicting.

                  And like many of you, I was at the park when he hit 500, 660, and 71. Yes, I cheered then. I was at the park and cheered when Willie Mays (still the greatest player I personally saw play) came out to "pass the torch" to Barry. Maybe I, like the rest of the baseball establishment, was just naive. But after Game of Shadows, I just can't bring myself to applaud him. But I root like heck for the other 24 players.....

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                  • #24
                    I've been a Giants fan since the late 1970s so it's hard for me to not follow the team closely as I usually do every season. Hopefully, this will be Bond's last season as a Giant and I can return the "The Bell" once again.
                    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      First off, Do you guys realize when steriods first were being used? I mean in a general sense? They were introduced to the United States in the 1930's. So with everyone's idealism that I am seeing, I say we whipe the board for all stats by all players since we have no way of knowing who took steriods, in what years,how long they did it for,how often they took it for. Hell Roger Maris may have! The good ol Hammerin Hank may have. Any star from 1930+ had the oppurtunity. I will also say till basically the 80's and even till just last year, they all would've got away with it. So who are any of you to crucify Barry Bonds. I bet you at least 85% of the ball players from 1950-2005 have used steriods in one point of their career. And for anyone that thinks that even if he has used human growth hormones/or any other kind of enhancer, that that makes him a cheater and should have a * by his name shame on you. Steriods didn't give him phenomal hand-eye coordination that he has. It didn't give him the best contact hitter skills of a power hitter of all time. But mainly I am fed up with this out to get Barry Bonds. Everyone is out to get Barry Bonds, cause apparently he was the best "steriod user" . I am a chicago cub fan through and through. I never have liked Barry L Bonds. I always questioned his personality and some of his comments. But with fans like you, and media that we have, I know wonder. Can you blame him?

                      Willie Mays did Steriods. Cause he had insane power numbers/skills to good for his time. /sarcasm off.

                      Good Luck Mr.Bonds on whatever you decide to do. Play as long as you want, as long as you love game, and feel you can contribute.
                      Last edited by west coast orange and black; 06-09-2006, 05:19 PM. Reason: rude + condescending

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Santo4HallofFame
                        First off, Do you guys realize when steriods first were being used? I mean in a general sense? They were introduced to the United States in the 1930's. So with everyone's idealism that I am seeing, I say we whipe the board for all stats by all players since we have no way of knowing who took steriods, in what years,how long they did it for,how often they took it for. Hell Roger Maris may have! The good ol Hammerin Hank may have. Any star from 1930+ had the oppurtunity. I will also say till basically the 80's and even till just last year, they all would've got away with it. So who are any of you to crucify Barry Bonds. I bet you at least 85% of the ball players from 1950-2005 have used steriods in one point of their career. And for anyone that thinks that even if he has used human growth hormones/or any other kind of enhancer, that that makes him a cheater and should have a * by his name shame on you. Steriods didn't give him phenomal hand-eye coordination that he has. It didn't give him the best contact hitter skills of a power hitter of all time. But mainly I am fed up with this out to get Barry Bonds. Everyone is out to get Barry Bonds, cause apparently he was the best "steriod user" . I am a chicago cub fan through and through. I never have liked Barry L Bonds. I always questioned his personality and some of his comments. But with fans like you, and media that we have, I know wonder. Can you blame him?

                        Willie Mays did Steriods. Cause he had insane power numbers/skills to good for his time. /sarcasm off.

                        Good Luck Mr.Bonds on whatever you decide to do. Play as long as you want, as long as you love game, and feel you can contribute.
                        I'll use your logic. In the 1903 the first aricraft was flown. So that means millions of people got to fly in an aircraft in 1904.

                        Athletes didn't start using steriods until the the 1960s with track and field and body building. If baseball players had access to them they wouldn't have used them anyway. Remember, the mindset of the baseball world until the 1980s was that weightlifting was very bad, taboo, for baseball players. It would ruin then as hitters. So without the weightlifting the steriods wouldn't have helped anyway. Do you have ANY evidence that MAris and Arron used PEDs. Saying that they "may have" is meaningless. Even if all those old ballplyers used them, that still doesn't make Bonds innocent. Bonds is cheater, a liar, and perhaps even a criminal if he is guilty of perjury.
                        Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 06-12-2006, 07:34 AM.
                        Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I disagree with your logic but I am retiring from the forums here, but just wanted to respond to you since i did post that just for you.
                          Lastly if Bonds perjured himself and goes to Jail over all this, shame you, and shame on the American Government for taking things way to far. This never was the buisness of the United States Government and it never will be. Don't they have better things to do right now? Is that really what we are wasting our resources on? Spending millions of dollars trying to get a case on Barry Lamar Bonds cause of possibly taking steriods in his career? get a life, all of you. Whether ever proven he took steriods or not means little to me. He still is the greatest player to the game. I hate admitting that, again I really am ANTI-Bonds. I would so much rather have this coversation about any other ball player (besides everyones favorite boy Pujols, till he gets linked with steriods). So when 95% of the homerun hitters from the 80's , 90's get linked up to doing steriods will you all feel better? Will you then say everyone of their records has an asterick? Will you then just admit that you wasted years of your life watching a bunch of "cheaters". Not to mention again most of all this stuff was legal in the game for how long? So even if so that doesnt make these players cheaters, it means they used the resources availible to them to make them better. You nor anyone has the right to crucify any of these players. And your bringing up air crafts is laughable, then you go on to say millions of people used them (in sarcasm). Well pills and aircrafts are much different for starters. Secondly , professional ballplayers were one of the few who could get a hold of any kind of enchancers. Also back then they didnt know all we know about steriods now. They didnt know you had to do all this working out or weightlifting. Also, if you think that steriods is all about getting HUGE then your very much misguided. One last time, I will say this if it was legal back then when any player did certain drugs(including Bonds) then they have no right to be crucified for taking advantage on what's out there there. Finally, to call Bonds a criminal for possibly lying for something that honestly isnt anyone else's buisness but his own and his family's (they have to deal with the issues any steriod will cause) is laughable and rude. But does fit what our country does best nowadays.. get involved in things we shouldn't. Try to make others look bad so people don't look at us...Not a bad strategy. If they are hardcore pressing the greatest baseball player in all time. Who isn't being pressed as hard.. you got it, I don't even have to say any of their names. That being maybe we need to start pressing perjury charges to certain people (want me to be blunt? The Bush Adminstration) for all the lies they have told this country since the year 2000. You honestly don't think this pressing of bonds has nothing to do with the fact everyday practically a new person from his adminstration is being indited , see I am not naive I know better.

                          All this makes me sick to my stomach. Anyhow I am done posting on these forums(nothing to do with this post btw, already was decided yesterday). Thanks to everyone I have met, wish everyone well, take care lastly GO CUBS!:gt

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by admode
                            Do any giants fans actually use this forum?
                            Yes we do. Send more over here! Thank you!

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