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  • #16
    Originally posted by EdmondsFan#1
    .
    Encarnacion is a lousy base runner, so Lazy... People think Belliard is lazy but they look pretty even to me.
    i'm not sure what evidence there is to suggest that juan enc is a lousy base runner. i haven't seen it with my own eyes and statisticly he looks like a decent baserunner (top ten in triples 3 times, top ten is sb once, 32 doubles per 162 games played, etc). the only negative would be a poor sb%.

    as to him and belliard being lazy, again i don't see that. anything specific you can point to? i'm not happy with either one as ballplayers but i don't think it's fair to call them lazy.
    Last edited by hubkittel; 09-30-2006, 11:03 PM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by hubkittel
      i'm not sure what evidence there is to suggest that juan enc is a lousy base runner. i haven't seen it with my own eyes and statisticly he looks like a decent baserunner (top ten in triples 3 times, top ten is sb once, 32 doubles per 162 games played, etc). the only negative would be a poor sb%.

      as to him and belliard being lazy, again i don't see that. anything specific you can point to? i'm not happy with either one as ballplayers but i don't think it's fair to call them lazy.
      I didn't mean Encarnacion isn't fast or anything, i'm saying he usually waddles back to the base, he is just bound to get picked off sometime and sometimes he isn't exactly a hustler.

      Belliard, how do you not think he is lazy? He never gets off the damn outfield grass, he plays the game like he's the s---, and he is hardly out there playing with what seems like any heart... That's what I think stands out about the Cardinals, is they have heart, and Belliard doesn't really present himself as much of a Cardinal.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by EdmondsFan#1
        I didn't mean Encarnacion isn't fast or anything, i'm saying he usually waddles back to the base, he is just bound to get picked off sometime and sometimes he isn't exactly a hustler.

        Belliard, how do you not think he is lazy? He never gets off the damn outfield grass, he plays the game like he's the s---, and he is hardly out there playing with what seems like any heart... That's what I think stands out about the Cardinals, is they have heart, and Belliard doesn't really present himself as much of a Cardinal.
        here's my general problem with these kinds of statements-and i want to be careful with what i'm saying because this is not in any way directed at you or meant to be a criticism of your character or anything like that. when some people use the word "lazy" or the phrase "doesn't hustle" when refering to black or latino athletes, they're using code for "his skin is too dark". when they talk about an athlete of a lighter skin color who doesn't have the skill level of latino or black player, they always talk about what great hustle he has, what a fierce competitor he is, how intelligent he is.

        an example from the cardinals-stubby clapp and ron belliard. stubby clapp can't hold belliard's jock but he comes to bat in stl and gets a standing ovation. belliard comes in, with his manram hair and his baggy pants and his hat cocked sideways, and he's "not our kind of player". another example-rex hudler/ray lankford. if you don't really think this is a problem in stl (and in the cardinal organization) talk to brian jordan, ron gant, and ozzie smith.

        again, my friend, i don't mean to direct any sort of accusation at you. i'm only pointing out a problem that exists in sports in america. we have to be specific in the words that we use-not because of any pc nonsense but just to make sure that we get our point across and are not misunderstood. if you want to make an argument that juan enc is a poor baserunner, it's possible (his sb% is crap). if you want to say belliard is an indifferent fielder, it should show up in his defensive numbers (i haven't looked at them so i don't know). i myself in a recent post questioned jason marquis' heart with nothing to back it up other than my instincts. so i'm as guilty of these things as anybody. these are real human beings we're talking about in this forum and i don't think we need to be casting stones unless we can back up our claims with evidence.

        i apologize for the lecture and the tone of this post but this is something that has been bothering me for a long time. growing up and living in stl, i know the racial problems that we have here. and i hate to see it inflicted on something that everyone in the city (black, white, or indifferent) loves-our st.louis cardinals. but it's there and it's real and it's a shame.

        but enough of this. :gt

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