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  • Pujols all-time placement

    Albert Pujols has been one of my favourite players since he came into the league, and I have him as the third-best 1B ever, right now, behind Gehrig and Foxx. As a Giants die-hard, I don't see as much about him, so I thought I'd ask the input of some Cards fans in a couple of areas:

    -All time 1B
    -All time Cardinals, any position (I have him behind Musial, about even with Gibson, ahead of Dean and Medwick and Frisch)
    -projected career length? (I think he's good for 5-7 more top years, 2-3 just below his peak, then retiring before he starts to flail)
    -projected totals, 2011? (I'm thinking .355/44/130, with Holliday perhaps surpassing him in RBIs as Phat Albert will be on base often; I think he'll take Votto's season personally and will easily win his fourth MVP).

    Am I over-rating, over-projecting for him? He's been so bloody consistent, it's hard to feature him accomplishing much less over a season. Does he have little injuries or some looming medical issues which might curtail his career? Is there a remote likelihood that he'll sign elsewhere? Thanks...

  • #2
    Pujols is just a monster. In the modern era (1900+) he may be as high as 3rd all-time and has a very reasonable shot at reaching #2 all-time. Musial certainly rates ahead of him as a Cardinal and possibly Hornsby, but that's it.

    He is the rarest of the rare; a bona fide HoFer after just ten seasons in the bigs.
    Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Sirmudgeon View Post
      Does he have little injuries or some looming medical issues which might curtail his career? Is there a remote likelihood that he'll sign elsewhere? Thanks...
      They say he has a partially torn ulnar collateral ligament in his right arm. He has had at least a couple of surgeries involving the elbow, but has not had Tommy John. Also, he has had calf problems off and on for several years, but he battles through. Sometimes he probably does not rest enough and that allows for injuries to linger, but I think he does a pretty good job of pushing through the "small stuff."
      Mike Hopper
      Former Gateway Grizzlies Intern

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      • #4
        Right now I'd place Pujols about dead even with Johnny Mize. If you look at Mize' career after 10 seasons, his rate stats are very similar to Pujols'- just a hair lower. But, Mize had 4- 5 more productive years as a situational player for the Yankees, and more importantly, lost 3 prime seasons to WW2. Give him even partial credit for that loss and he's ahead of Pujols, in my opinion. Still, Pujols is on direct course to take over number 3 indisputably with another year or so of high level performance.

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        • #5
          3rd or 4th all time at 1B looks about right. Cardinal? Behind Musial and Hornsby for sure.

          Career projection? I look for 3-4 more really good seasons, and then a noticible decline.

          By the end of his career, I think he will look like a top 15-20 all-timer.
          1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

          1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

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          The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
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          • #6
            Originally posted by STLCards2 View Post
            3rd or 4th all time at 1B looks about right. Cardinal? Behind Musial and Hornsby for sure.

            Career projection? I look for 3-4 more really good seasons, and then a noticible decline.

            By the end of his career, I think he will look like a top 15-20 all-timer.
            Hornsby, of course, my bad. I'm still thinking that his decline won't be so steep, but maybe those injuries mentioned will catch up with him. Is the elbow affecting his hitting much? Should he get off-season TJ surgery or would that affect his throwing too much at first? His calf injuries seem like a real concen, given that he tends to play through them, and run the bases hard, plus with his wide stance he needs that solid foundation.

            Thanks for the heads-up, Cards fans.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Sirmudgeon View Post
              Hornsby, of course, my bad. I'm still thinking that his decline won't be so steep, but maybe those injuries mentioned will catch up with him. Is the elbow affecting his hitting much? Should he get off-season TJ surgery or would that affect his throwing too much at first? His calf injuries seem like a real concen, given that he tends to play through them, and run the bases hard, plus with his wide stance he needs that solid foundation.

              Thanks for the heads-up, Cards fans.
              As far as the elbow - he certainly will not have TJ surgery heading into a contract year - he would miss half of the season at least. As far as how much it is effecting him? Tough to say. 2008 and 2009 were two of his best seasons, but supposedly, those were two of the worst years for his elbow. 2010 was supposed to be his "elbow is finally healthy monster season", but it turned out to be a hair under his normal season. So, who knows.

              I am not only worried about his elbow or calf. Large 1B tend to decline fast. Albert is a hard worker, so he might avoid the same fate, but I am worried that the back end of the contract will financially be devastating for the ballclub. Of course letting him walk could be devastating in the short term. Tough spot that the Cardinals are in.
              1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

              1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

              1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


              The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
              The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

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              • #8
                I'm not worried too much about the elbow. Why? Because he's seen the best elbow surgeon in the world and been told he's fine. He's played with it for several years now and I don't think it has affected him much. If it has, think about the numbers he'd be putting up! He's not going to have elbow surgery until after his career unless something drastic happens.
                Mike Hopper
                Former Gateway Grizzlies Intern

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by STLCards2 View Post
                  As far as the elbow - he certainly will not have TJ surgery heading into a contract year - he would miss half of the season at least. As far as how much it is effecting him? Tough to say. 2008 and 2009 were two of his best seasons, but supposedly, those were two of the worst years for his elbow. 2010 was supposed to be his "elbow is finally healthy monster season", but it turned out to be a hair under his normal season. So, who knows.

                  I am not only worried about his elbow or calf. Large 1B tend to decline fast. Albert is a hard worker, so he might avoid the same fate, but I am worried that the back end of the contract will financially be devastating for the ballclub. Of course letting him walk could be devastating in the short term. Tough spot that the Cardinals are in.
                  A long contract could be bad in the end. They will have to pay decline years. also they have a long contract on holliday.

                  however the cardinals farm system is dead anyway. after the pujols/Holliday/wainwright era, they will fall of the cliff anyway and will need a long rebuild (I think several consecutive loosing seasons). so why not ride pujols to the end? It's too late anyway for a slow rebuild.
                  I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by dominik View Post
                    A long contract could be bad in the end. They will have to pay decline years. also they have a long contract on holliday.

                    however the cardinals farm system is dead anyway. after the pujols/Holliday/wainwright era, they will fall of the cliff anyway and will need a long rebuild (I think several consecutive loosing seasons). so why not ride pujols to the end? It's too late anyway for a slow rebuild.


                    Cardinals farm system is dead? So i guess Rasmus, Craig, and Garcia as well as the rest of the decent young players we have that are coming up from there might as well just give up.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by dominik View Post
                      A long contract could be bad in the end. They will have to pay decline years. also they have a long contract on holliday.

                      however the cardinals farm system is dead anyway. after the pujols/Holliday/wainwright era, they will fall of the cliff anyway and will need a long rebuild (I think several consecutive loosing seasons). so why not ride pujols to the end? It's too late anyway for a slow rebuild.
                      Trading him for several young studs, can't misses, or high draft picks could fix the weak farm system issue. I am not saying they should trade him, but it isn't as easy as the Joe Shmoe Cards fan's "it would be the death of the franchise" crap that you hear on talk radio around here all day long. I hop he stays...love the guy. But this town would rather win without him than lose with him given only those two options.

                      And the farm system may not be dead, but is always ranked near the bottom by everybody. When you compare the proven guys (not potential one-year wonders like Garcia) who have come out of this system compared to most others, we are really lacking. Nobody asks for anybody in our system to trade except for Shelby Miller.
                      1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                      1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                      1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                      The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                      The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by STLCards2 View Post
                        Trading him for several young studs, can't misses, or high draft picks could fix the weak farm system issue. I am not saying they should trade him, but it isn't as easy as the Joe Shmoe Cards fan's "it would be the death of the franchise" crap that you hear on talk radio around here all day long. I hop he stays...love the guy. But this town would rather win without him than lose with him given only those two options.

                        And the farm system may not be dead, but is always ranked near the bottom by everybody. When you compare the proven guys (not potential one-year wonders like Garcia) who have come out of this system compared to most others, we are really lacking. Nobody asks for anybody in our system to trade except for Shelby Miller.
                        this could be done, however I would rather have a rebuild of the farm from the bottom up. i think a team like the cards should have a great farm system. I'm not saying they should use the "moneyball" approach but the system must become more modern.

                        teams like oakland, tampa, colorado but also big teams like the yanks and red sox who don't draft high have very modern and good farm systems that produces a lot of good players. maybe the cards are too oldschool in their view of a farm system(I think they are a very traditional team which is not bad but some modern things are not bad). they need better player evaluation and player developement.

                        Of course a blockbuster trade could help the system, but I think without an overhaul of the complete farm system (not only players but also coaching and office personell) this would not be enough.
                        today even minor league systems need a very good office management and organized working.
                        Last edited by dominik; 01-10-2011, 03:25 AM.
                        I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

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