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Holliday: Most underrated player in the league?

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  • Holliday: Most underrated player in the league?

    Since coming over to the Redbirds, Holliday has had an OPS+ of 177. (Consider that Albert Pujols has had an OPS+ of 156 the past 3 years). He was arguably the most valuable outfielder in the NL last year, and is carrying the team this year (along with the incredibly resurgent Berkman). He finished 12th in NL MVP voting last year.

    On paper, at least, he's been nearly as valuable to the Cardinals success as Albert Pujols himself since he joined the club, (!!) and yet he doesn't seem to get the national recognition he deserves.

    Thoughts?

  • #2
    Originally posted by csh19792001 View Post
    Since coming over to the Redbirds, Holliday has had an OPS+ of 177. (Consider that Albert Pujols has had an OPS+ of 156 the past 3 years). He was arguably the most valuable outfielder in the NL last year, and is carrying the team this year (along with the incredibly resurgent Berkman). He finished 12th in NL MVP voting last year.

    On paper, at least, he's been nearly as valuable to the Cardinals success as Albert Pujols himself since he joined the club, (!!) and yet he doesn't seem to get the national recognition he deserves.

    Thoughts?
    Without getting into the discusion of Holliday's value, your OPS+ numbers on both Holliday and Pujols are wrong- really wrong. you've taken the numbers from 2009, 2010, 2011, and added them together and divided by 3. This is completely erroneous. Worse yet, it appears you've taken Holliday's partial season number from 2009 and treated it as a full season. WORST yet, you've taken the to date 2011 numbers for both players (about 25 games) and treated them as full seasons! I suggest you go back and figure out how to calculate OPS+ correctly, then post the right numbers.

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    • #3
      I don't know how to calculate OPS+, but I do know that Holliday and Berkman look great, and if Pujols comes alive, that's a scary middle order. Cargo/Tulo/Helton and Tex/ARod/Cano are two comparisons I can come up with to this point in the season, maybe Quentin/Konerko/Dunn, Young/Hamilton/Cruz at the end of the year. But I don't think Holliday is under-rated by anyone, in or out of the game. He's a stud and everyone knows it.

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      • #4
        The Most Underrated? I have no idea, but he has certainly shed the "product of Coors Field" label. The man can flat-out rake.
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        • #5
          Originally posted by BigRon View Post
          Without getting into the discusion of Holliday's value, your OPS+ numbers on both Holliday and Pujols are wrong- really wrong. you've taken the numbers from 2009, 2010, 2011, and added them together and divided by 3. This is completely erroneous. Worse yet, it appears you've taken Holliday's partial season number from 2009 and treated it as a full season. WORST yet, you've taken the to date 2011 numbers for both players (about 25 games) and treated them as full seasons! I suggest you go back and figure out how to calculate OPS+ correctly, then post the right numbers.
          Or, you could just correct me, and hold the smug condescension. Then post the right numbers.

          That'd work.

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          • #6
            From 2009-present, Pujols' OPS+ is 175. As a Cardinal, Holliday's OPS+ is 160.

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            • #7
              Holliday is getting $17M a season to play for the Cards, so he isn't flying too low below the radar.
              Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

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              • #8
                Originally posted by KCGHOST View Post
                Holliday is getting $17M a season to play for the Cards, so he isn't flying too low below the radar.
                Agreed completely. Add in the fact that even before he made the second "T" in Matt when he signed his deal, fans were worrying how the deal would affect Pujols' signability. Before the "d" in Holiday, opinions had been formed, and not just by Cards fans. He gets the appropriate amount of attention - as the Cards #2 player when compared to others players who have been in that role.
                "Herman Franks to Sal Yvars to Bobby Thomson. Ralph Branca to Bobby Thomson to Helen Rita... cue Russ Hodges."

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by StanTheMan View Post
                  Agreed completely. Add in the fact that even before he made the second "T" in Matt when he signed his deal, fans were worrying how the deal would affect Pujols' signability. Before the "d" in Holiday, opinions had been formed, and not just by Cards fans. He gets the appropriate amount of attention - as the Cards #2 player when compared to others players who have been in that role.
                  Not to sound like "El Halo", but seriously, brother,...some "outside" perspective is needed on your part on this particular topic....

                  Holliday gets "the appropriate amount of attention" only (ostensibly) in the "flyover states" (i.e., Indiana and Missouri) and by the select few baseball freaks (i.e., ourselves). Relative to the major media outlets, these states generate basically nothing in terms of relative press and attention.

                  As far as the National Media goes, and what actually garners the big attention (i.e.; the massively influential coastal cities of NY, LA, BOS, SF)...nobody cares about Holliday. This is evidenced clearly by where he stood in the MVP voting last year, and how much attention he gets relative to the Yankee, Red Sox, and other top few market stars.

                  Can you imagine if the NY Yankees had signed a free agent who had put up a line of .361/.438/.595 since joining the team two years ago? He'd be immaculated!!!!
                  Last edited by csh19792001; 05-04-2011, 08:24 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Immaculated? That sounds painful and perhaps illegal. As for national coverage, well, I live in Oregon, no ML team, coverage is fairly even-handed, some nods towards the Mariners, but St. Louis and Colorado get plenty of ink, and so does Holliday. ESPN is pretty East Coast-biased, but they have plenty of info on the Cards, Rockies, etc., and Holliday is not ignored. Similar with USA Today. I think he's perceived as being at the Berkman (of old, and again this year), Helton (ditto), Teixeira, Adrian Gonzalez level of player, which seems about right, a notch below the top dogs but not by much.

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                    • #11
                      chs... Where do you live?
                      "Herman Franks to Sal Yvars to Bobby Thomson. Ralph Branca to Bobby Thomson to Helen Rita... cue Russ Hodges."

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                      • #12
                        Holliday, since joining STL has hit:

                        .332/.408/.558/.966

                        No matter who you are, that is good. There may be a few who are better, but not many. Actually, that is just under what Pujols did last year.

                        Now, as far as this year is concerned, Obviously with Pujols' slow start and Holliday's fast one, Holliday has clearly shown his worth. Holliday does not get as much attention as the big names from the big clubs do (NYY, BOS, etc...) but he is not entirely forgotten. He and Berkman are definitely the big hitters on the team, the ones keeping them 4 games over .500 to date.

                        Now that I just looked, I see that the club is leading the league in BA, OBP and SLG!!! And Holliday's league leading BA (.394) and OBP (.484) coming into today certainly helps.

                        But being in St. Luis means he is going to play second fiddle to Pujols, even when he is playing better at the moment. So maybe on a national scale, he is underrated; maybe not on this board (with all of us so attentive and knowledgeable - not to mention good looking) but he might be.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Edgartohof View Post
                          So maybe on a national scale, he is underrated; maybe not on this board (with all of us so attentive and knowledgeable - not to mention good looking) but he might be.
                          That's all I was saying, Edgar. On a national scale, he's extremely overlooked.

                          StanTheMan...to answer your question...NY resident here. Only regional Cardinals fan I know. Holliday hardly EVER gets mentioned here, or in the Boston Metro area. Generally speaking, baseball fans in NYC and New England- generally- don't even really know who he is.

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                          • #14
                            That makes some sense.... The saturation in that market is severe for the East Coast teams. I'm a St. Louisan now in Indianapolis, where baseball coverage is hard to come by. The Midwest Fox Sports TV stations and some ESPN/Baseball Tonight take care of it for me though.

                            It certainly can't help Holliday that a certain man named Halladay is pretty good too... And he's in the Eastern market.
                            "Herman Franks to Sal Yvars to Bobby Thomson. Ralph Branca to Bobby Thomson to Helen Rita... cue Russ Hodges."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The Most Underrated Player in the League title should go to Jered Weaver.

                              He's made 152 big league starts and he has a 3.44 ERA and 1.187 WHIP.

                              Since he entered the league in 2006. Only 11 starting pitchers have an ERA under 3.5 and a WHIP under 1.2 and he's one of them. He also has a .631 W/L percentage for what it's worth.

                              Yet I hardly ever hear him mentioned in the conversation of best pitchers.
                              My top 10 players:

                              1. Babe Ruth
                              2. Barry Bonds
                              3. Ty Cobb
                              4. Ted Williams
                              5. Willie Mays
                              6. Alex Rodriguez
                              7. Hank Aaron
                              8. Honus Wagner
                              9. Lou Gehrig
                              10. Mickey Mantle

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