Postseason starter lineup ... weakest ever

[Brownieand45sfan]

Lohse, Carpenter, Wainwright, Lynn ... I dont think Ive ever seen a weaker starting 4 in St Louis postseason history.

Sure ... they have racked up some wins .. that's true of any team that wins 88 games ... but there's no real "stopper" ... and dont confuse the old Carpenter with a "jury still out" Carpenter who may have been rushed back from rehab.

[Bothrops Atrox]

06 was far worse. Anthony Reyes started game 1 of the WS. Anthiny frickin' Reyes. We got really lucky that Weaver pitched a good postseason, because he was an awful pitcher. Awful. I'd take Carp, Waino, and Loshe over Suppan too. So you had Carp, a mediocre Suppan, and a bunch of dogcrap vs. 4 guys who are all solid pitchers. I'll take the latter.

I'd take this staff over 11 too.

And lets not romanticize over 2011 Carp too much - he did get hammered in his first postseason start that year too. Lets see how he does in game 6 before we cast him off.

11 Carp > 12 Carp
11 Loshe < 12 Loshe
11 Jackson < 12 Wainwright
11 Garcia = 12 Lyn

Heck - looking back to 82, the Andjuar had a rare great season , but Forsh, Stuper Mura, and Lapoint were just guys that year.

[Brownieand45sfan]

"far" worse? "dog crap"? "frickin"? You're just being your usual unreasonable self. (Probably the main reason this Cards forum is so dead.) The 2006 team had three All-Stars in the prime of their careers. And the proof is in the pudding to a large extent. I'll take a 4-1 World Series victory and be willing to bet that whatever pitching staff pitched them through all that wasn't dog crap. Lohse, motivated by a contract year, I hope will continue to pitch well. But with an atrocious prior postseason record, you can't trust him as the "stopper". Everyone else on the starting staff is a reclamation project that all you can do is "hope" you can get some innings out of. Never thought I'd be in the position of "praying" to get us to a bunch of middle relievers up from the minor leagues. Mozeliak sliced the starting pitching baloney way too thin this year.

06 was far worse. Anthony Reyes started game 1 of the WS. Anthiny frickin' Reyes. We got really lucky that Weaver pitched a good postseason, because he was an awful pitcher. Awful. I'd take Carp, Waino, and Loshe over Suppan too. So you had Carp, a mediocre Suppan, and a bunch of dogcrap vs. 4 guys who are all solid pitchers. I'll take the latter.

I'd take this staff over 11 too.

And lets not romanticize over 2011 Carp too much - he did get hammered in his first postseason start that year too. Lets see how he does in game 6 before we cast him off.

11 Carp > 12 Carp
11 Loshe < 12 Loshe
11 Jackson < 12 Wainwright
11 Garcia = 12 Lyn

Heck - looking back to 82, the Andjuar had a rare great season , but Forsh, Stuper Mura, and Lapoint were just guys that year.

[Bothrops Atrox]

"far" worse? "dog crap"? "frickin"? You're just being your usual unreasonable self. (Probably the main reason this Cards forum is so dead.) The 2006 team had three All-Stars in the prime of their careers. And the proof is in the pudding to a large extent. I'll take a 4-1 World Series victory and be willing to bet that whatever pitching staff pitched them through all that wasn't dog crap. Lohse, motivated by a contract year, I hope will continue to pitch well. But with an atrocious prior postseason record, you can't trust him as the "stopper". Everyone else on the starting staff is a reclamation project that all you can do is "hope" you can get some innings out of. Never thought I'd be in the position of "praying" to get us to a bunch of middle relievers up from the minor leagues. Mozeliak sliced the starting pitching baloney way too thin this year.

I am sorry -can you please reference these other times in which I have been unreasonable? In fact, after 11,500 posts, no warnings or suspensions, and no enemies that I know of, I'd say that my reputation here is pretty good. Conficlting opinions with hyperbole does not make one unreasonable. Personal attacks with no basis does.

The proof isn't in how a guy like Weaver performs in a small sample size, but the player's total package. I'd take this 4 over 2006 and maybe 2011. Weaver and Reyes were horrible pitchers, no matter how you slice your bologna. Suppan was a career average to below average pitcher with a few big postseason moments. Just because they pitched well in a short-time frame does not mean they were better overall. I guess the 2000 and 2002 Braves staffs were horrible, since they got rocked and knocked out of the first round?

And which 3 All Star pitchers in their primes did the Cardinals have in 2006?

Lets also not forget that the Cards got more innings from the pen than the starting staff during the NLCS in 2011.

[StanTheMan]

I'll take these 4 over last year as well. No crap from a dog needed however.

[Brownieand45sfan]

tom ackerman of KMOX and matthew leach of mlb.com, both agreed on the radio today that the cardinal starting pitching is the "number one obstacle to their getting to the world series"

[Bothrops Atrox]

tom ackerman of KMOX and matthew leach of mlb.com, both agreed on the radio today that the cardinal starting pitching is the "number one obstacle to their getting to the world series"

As it was in 2006 and 2011 too.

[Brownieand45sfan]

So you're calling Tom and Matthew cliche-meisters?

As it was in 2006 and 2011 too.

[StanTheMan]

tom ackerman of KMOX and matthew leach of mlb.com, both agreed on the radio today that the cardinal starting pitching is the "number one obstacle to their getting to the world series"

As it was in 2006 and 2011 too.

And every year for every team in history... SP's being kinda important?

[Bothrops Atrox]

And every year for every team in history... SP's being kinda important?

If a team has a great staff and a blah lineup...it isn't their greatest obstacle. The lineup was the 2010 Giants biggest obstacle. The bullpen the 1990's Braves, etc. That is very different from saying starting pitching is the most important part of a team. Not sure if that is true anyway.

[StanTheMan]

If a team has a great staff they have already overcome the greatest obstacle... SP's are the most important part of a team. No player(s) handle the ball more, much less handle it on every pitch of every at bat of the game.

[Bothrops Atrox]

So you're calling Tom and Matthew cliche-meisters?

Every professional sports journalist is a cliche-meister. May only be challenged in that category by politicians.

But in fact, Tom and Matthew are 100% correct in this case: the Cardinals starting staff is a bigger concern than their offense or bullpen. I never once suggested otherwsie. I never even claimed that the Card's staff was really good. However, that is a 100% strawman issue, as the question at-hand in this thread was if the 2012 staff is relatively worse than previous Cardinals staffs - something that matt and Tom did not address in their comments.

[Bothrops Atrox]

If a team has a great staff they have already overcome the greatest obstacle... SP's are the most important part of a team. No player(s) handle the ball more, much less handle it on every pitch of every at bat of the game.

if the obstacle is overcome...it is no longer an obstacle. Semantics.