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All time Cardinals 25 man roster

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  • All time Cardinals 25 man roster

    C: Ted Simmons, Yadier Molina
    1B: Albert Pujols, Johnny Mize
    2B: Rogers Hornsby, Frankie Frisch
    3B: Ken Boyer, Scott Rolen
    SS: Ozzie Smith, Marty Marion
    LF: Stan Musial, Joe Medwick
    CF: Jim Edmonds, Curt Flood
    RF: Enos Slaughter
    SP: Bob Gibson, Dizzy Dean, Harry Brecheen, Adam Wainwright, Ted Breitenstein
    RP: Joe Hoerner, Todd Worrell, Steve Kline, Bobby Shantz, Mike Garman

    Thoughts?
    My dream ballpark dimensions
    LF: 388 Feet...Height 37 Feet...LCF: 455 Feet...CF: 542 Feet...Height 35 Feet
    RCF: 471 Feet...RF: 400 Feet...Height 60 Feet
    Location....San Diego

  • #2
    Originally posted by Sockeye View Post
    C: Ted Simmons, Yadier Molina
    1B: Albert Pujols, Johnny Mize
    2B: Rogers Hornsby, Frankie Frisch
    3B: Ken Boyer, Scott Rolen
    SS: Ozzie Smith, Marty Marion
    LF: Stan Musial, Joe Medwick
    CF: Jim Edmonds, Curt Flood
    RF: Enos Slaughter
    SP: Bob Gibson, Dizzy Dean, Harry Brecheen, Adam Wainwright, Ted Breitenstein
    RP: Joe Hoerner, Todd Worrell, Steve Kline, Bobby Shantz, Mike Garman

    Thoughts?
    I might switch out Breitenstein for Cooper or Carpenter or Warneke.
    Sutter and Lee Smith have to be in the pen. Nice list, though. Great position player choices. I could debate Flood as the backup CF, I guess.
    1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

    1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

    1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


    The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
    The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post
      I might switch out Breitenstein for Cooper or Carpenter or Warneke.
      Sutter and Lee Smith have to be in the pen. Nice list, though. Great position player choices. I could debate Flood as the backup CF, I guess.
      Thank you. Ted Breitenstein was a very good pitcher, a true work horse, that pitched for some of the worst Cardinal teams in franchise history in the highest run scoring era in baseball history. During his 5 full seasons with the Cards they never finished better than 6th in fielding% so he wasn't getting any help behind him. Yet he still managed to win 94 games from 1892-96. In 1893 he led the league in ERA and ERA+ and in 1894 he went 27-23 while leading the league in IP. The rest of the pitchers combined to go 29-53. Only imagine what he could have done on a decent team.

      Bruce Sutter & Lee Smith both seemed like no brainers until you look at the numbers.

      Bruce Sutter: 2.72 ERA, 1.17 WHIP, 132 ERA+, 396.4
      Lee Smith: 2.90 ERA, 1.15 WHIP, 128 ERA+, 266.2
      Mike Garman: 2.52 ERA, 1.33 WHIP, 147 ERA+, 160.2
      Bobby Shantz: 2.51 ERA, 1.02 WHIP, 155 ERA+, 154.1
      Steve Kline: 2.69 ERA, 1.20 WHIP, 156 ERA+, 247.1
      Todd Worrell: 2.56 ERA, 1.20 WHIP, 145 ERA+, 425.2
      Joe Hoerner: 2.10 ERA, 1.02 WHIP, 161 ERA+, 244.1
      Last edited by Sockeye; 04-20-2015, 05:33 PM.
      My dream ballpark dimensions
      LF: 388 Feet...Height 37 Feet...LCF: 455 Feet...CF: 542 Feet...Height 35 Feet
      RCF: 471 Feet...RF: 400 Feet...Height 60 Feet
      Location....San Diego

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Sockeye View Post
        Thank you. Ted Breitenstein was a very good pitcher, a true work horse, that pitched for some of the worst Cardinal teams in franchise history in the highest run scoring era in baseball history. During his 5 full seasons with the Cards they never finished better than 6th in fielding% so he wasn't getting any help behind him. Yet he still managed to win 94 games from 1892-96. In 1893 he led the league in ERA and ERA+ and in 1894 he went 27-23 while leading the league in IP. The rest of the pitchers combined to go 29-53. Only imagine what he could have done on a decent team.

        Bruce Sutter & Lee Smith both seemed like no brainers until you look at the numbers.

        Bruce Sutter: 2.72 ERA, 1.17 WHIP, 132 ERA+
        Lee Smith: 2.90 ERA, 1.15 WHIP, 128 ERA+
        Mike Garman: 2.52 ERA, 1.33 WHIP, 147 ERA+
        Bobby Shantz: 2.51 ERA, 1.02 WHIP, 155 ERA+
        Steve Kline: 2.69 ERA, 1.20 WHIP, 156 ERA+
        Todd Worrell: 2.56 ERA, 1.20 WHIP, 145 ERA+
        Joe Hoerner: 2.10 ERA, 1.02 WHIP, 161 ERA+
        I have to see some IP totals before I put any stock in the ERA+.

        Unless I know the makeup of the hits and the quality of range behind the pitcher, WHIP does little for me either.

        I am fully aware of Ted B. Ill take the 20th or 21st century guy, though.
        1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

        1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

        1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


        The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
        The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post
          I have to see some IP totals before I put any stock in the ERA+.

          Unless I know the makeup of the hits and the quality of range behind the pitcher, WHIP does little for me either.

          I am fully aware of Ted B. Ill take the 20th or 21st century guy, though.
          I edited the post above to include IP.
          My dream ballpark dimensions
          LF: 388 Feet...Height 37 Feet...LCF: 455 Feet...CF: 542 Feet...Height 35 Feet
          RCF: 471 Feet...RF: 400 Feet...Height 60 Feet
          Location....San Diego

          Comment


          • #6
            That's a pretty good job, about as good as any other even by swapping out a few names here or there. You certainly hit the big dogs, and that is what really matters. I would go along with Bothrops and quibble a bit here and there with the pitchers, but overall you can't go wrong. It is pretty hard to pull out just 25 names from a historic franchise with over 130 years of history. Good work!
            "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Herr28 View Post
              That's a pretty good job, about as good as any other even by swapping out a few names here or there. You certainly hit the big dogs, and that is what really matters. I would go along with Bothrops and quibble a bit here and there with the pitchers, but overall you can't go wrong. It is pretty hard to pull out just 25 names from a historic franchise with over 130 years of history. Good work!
              Thank you! Super appreciate that!
              My dream ballpark dimensions
              LF: 388 Feet...Height 37 Feet...LCF: 455 Feet...CF: 542 Feet...Height 35 Feet
              RCF: 471 Feet...RF: 400 Feet...Height 60 Feet
              Location....San Diego

              Comment


              • #8
                There are HoFers that need to be on there -- Jim Bottomley and Chick Hafey and Jess Haines. From '26 to '34 the Cardinals dominated the NL as firmly as they have in the 21st century.

                There is no way Edmonds goes on this list. Most outfielders played a lot at several positions. I'd just go with six outfielders: Musial, Hafey, Medwick, Slaughter, Brock, and a sixth one up for grabs. You're picking he best players, not fielders, and sorting them according tp position normally played. Ozzie is the only one who deserves to be on the team on the basis of defense heavily weighted. If defense counted, Brock wouldn't have even been in the Major Leagues.

                In 1949, for some reason, Musial played RF and Slaughter played LF, almost every game. Musial was an overlooked defensive outfielder, covered a lot of ground and had a great arm. In over 700 games in RF, he averaged an assist every 12 games. BTW, a rarely mentioned Musial stat, he is the only player to ever lead all MLB in both doubles and triples in the same season, and the only one to lead his league more than once. Three times he led the NL in both doubles and triples. Think about how hard that is.
                Last edited by jtur88; 10-02-2015, 08:24 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Chick Hafey over Jim Edmonds? I'm not seeing that.
                  Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    If your roster needs a true center fielder, you could make the case for Willie McGee over either Edmonds or Flood.

                    Bruce Sutter & Lee Smith both seemed like no brainers until you look at the numbers.
                    How about John Smlotz, whose Whip with the Cards was 1.18? If you want to go there, you have to put John Tudor on your starter list, too.But your criteria had to be genuinely good players of decent careers who spent many of their better years with the Cardinals. Otherwise you get to the Steve Carltons and Luis Arroyos and Lindey McDaniels, along with Shantz and Mize.. And Roger Maris and Orlando Cepeda, etc. The fact is, I don't theink the Cards ever had a notable closer who spend most of a decent career with the Cards.
                    Last edited by jtur88; 10-02-2015, 09:35 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by jtur88 View Post
                      If your roster needs a true center fielder, you could make the case for Willie McGee over either Edmonds or Flood.

                      How about John Smlotz, whose Whip with the Cards was 1.18? If you want to go there, you have to put John Tudor on your starter list, too.But your criteria had to be genuinely good players of decent careers who spent many of their better years with the Cardinals. Otherwise you get to the Steve Carltons and Luis Arroyos and Lindey McDaniels, along with Shantz and Mize.. And Roger Maris and Orlando Cepeda, etc. The fact is, I don't theink the Cards ever had a notable closer who spend most of a decent career with the Cards.
                      Could just as easily take Terry Moore over all of them, too, if you wanted.
                      "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I didn't look at all the Cardinal pitchers, but there was this 6'3" pitcher named Slim Sallee who had a 173-143, 106 with the Cards between 1908 and 1921 when they were mostly a second division club.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Could just as easily take Terry Moore over all of them, too, if you wanted.
                          Yeah, Terry Moore is the only reason Musial didn't spend his career as a center fielder. Cardinal fans who remember that era wipe a tear from their eye and speak with hushed reverence about how much Terry Moore mean to those pre-war ball clubs. Without a doubt one of the best-loved Cardinals to ever wear the uniforn. I was borh a Cardinal fan the year Moore was flanked by a .322-hitting Medwick, and rookie Country Slaughter. Retire Moore's number (8). Hell, they can't find a way to retire Medwicks's.

                          This is not to lobby for Taylor Douthit's inclusion, but his record stands to this day for the most outfield putouts in a season. Of the next ten on the list, Richie Ashburn is seven of them.

                          Top 20 Cardinals, ranked by WAR:


                          1. Musial 128
                          2. Hornsby 91
                          3. Gibson 89
                          4. Pujols 86
                          5. Ozzie 65
                          6. Boyer 58
                          7. Slaughter 50
                          8. Simmons 44
                          9. Flood 42
                          10. Brock 41
                          11. Dean 40
                          12. Medwick 39
                          13. Brecheen 39
                          14. Mze 38
                          15. Edmonds 37
                          16. Lankford 37
                          17. Caruthers 36
                          18. Wainwright 36
                          19. Hernandez 34
                          20. Bottomley 33

                          Who had Ray Lankford on their team of all time greats?
                          Last edited by jtur88; 10-03-2015, 05:27 PM.

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