Why did the Braves move twice?

[tonypug]

I can understand the Braves moving from Boston to Milwaukee, better attendence more revenue, but why the fairly quick move to Atlanta ? After the move to Milwaukee, the Braves attendence figures were so great it scared the pants off of O'malley and was one of the reasons given for the Dodgers move to LA. Sure attendence started to go down, but that is normal, after the initial surge. I just don't understand the move to Atlanta.

[DODGER DEB]

Re: Why did the Braves move twice?

Originally posted by tonypug
I can understand the Braves moving from Boston to Milwaukee, better attendence more revenue, but why the fairly quick move to Atlanta ? After the move to Milwaukee, the Braves attendence figures were so great it scared the pants off of O'malley and was one of the reasons given for the Dodgers move to LA. Sure attendence started to go down, but that is normal, after the initial surge. I just don't understand the move to Atlanta.

I believe, like LA, Atlanta made the Braves an offer they couldn't refuse. This, coupled with the fact the MLB was looking for a "gateway" into the South, made the move very easy! I don't remember if Lou Perini still owned the Braves at that time, but obviously ALL the owners were on board.....Atlanta just had to dangle more revenue in front of them and "the deal was done".

c.


:radio OUR MOMENT IN TIME - OCTOBER 4, 1955 - 3:43PM

[JACKIE42]

Re: Why did the Braves move twice?

Originally posted by tonypug
I can understand the Braves moving from Boston to Milwaukee, better attendence more revenue, but why the fairly quick move to Atlanta ? After the move to Milwaukee, the Braves attendence figures were so great it scared the pants off of O'malley and was one of the reasons given for the Dodgers move to LA. Sure attendence started to go down, but that is normal, after the initial surge. I just don't understand the move to Atlanta.

Its called greed, they got a better deal in Atlanta.

[Greenpeach]

Re: Why did the Braves move twice?

Originally posted by tonypug
I can understand the Braves moving from Boston to Milwaukee, better attendence more revenue, but why the fairly quick move to Atlanta ? After the move to Milwaukee, the Braves attendence figures were so great it scared the pants off of O'malley and was one of the reasons given for the Dodgers move to LA. Sure attendence started to go down, but that is normal, after the initial surge. I just don't understand the move to Atlanta.

Attendance peeked for the Braves in Milwaukee in 1957 at 2.2 million. This coincided with their World's Championship victory over the New York Yankees. However, attendance steadily decreased from that point on for the next eight years until it bottomed out at 555,000 in 1965 when Lou Perini decided to sell the club.

I can't really blame Perini for dumping the club. The steady attendance decline was very disappointing considering that the Braves never had a losing record in their 13 years in Milwaukee.
In addition, the city of Milwaukee built a then state-of-the-art stadium for the Braves in 1953. When talking to some of my friends from Wisconsin, they indicate that the novelty of major league baseball just wore off. One must also take into account the presence of the White Sox & Cubs just 90 miles to the south. Many people in the southeastern part of the Dairy state (ex. Kenosha) openly root for the Chicago sports teams. If major league baseball had been smart, they would've moved the White Sox to Milwaukee in 1970 & moved the Pilots elsewhere.

[donzblock]

If Milwaukee is a town where baseball is regarded as a novelty, then it should never have a team. Its history indicates that no major league team belongs there.

[yellowdog]

Bill Bartholomay was the owner when the Braves moved to Atlanta. He led a group of investors that bought the tem between the 1962-63 seasons. He saw a pot of gold in the rapidly growing Atlanta area and surrounding areas.

The Braves were originally scheduled to move in 1965, but a judge issued a restraining order that kept them in Milwaukee for that season. They were in fact a lame duck team in '65 which is the main reason for the attendence bottoming out at 555,000 that year.

From everything I've read and remember, the Milwaukee fans enjoyed a very good relationship with the Braves. Comments from some of the players at the time suggest that the majority of them weren't very happy about the move.

[Greenpeach]

Originally posted by yellowdog
Bill Bartholomay was the owner when the Braves moved to Atlanta. He led a group of investors that bought the tem between the 1962-63 seasons. He saw a pot of gold in the rapidly growing Atlanta area and surrounding areas.

The Braves were originally scheduled to move in 1965, but a judge issued a restraining order that kept them in Milwaukee for that season. They were in fact a lame duck team in '65 which is the main reason for the attendence bottoming out at 555,000 that year.

From everything I've read and remember, the Milwaukee fans enjoyed a very good relationship with the Braves. Comments from some of the players at the time suggest that the majority of them weren't very happy about the move.

I think many of the African-American players, most notably Hank Aaron, didn't want to move back to the still segregated south. In Milwaukee, they were treated well by the overwhelmingly white fan base. Taken in the context of the times, I can't say that I could blame them at all.

YD, I have to disagree with you a little bit on the attendance plunge. While it's true that 1965 was a lame duck year for the Braves in Milwaukee & it certainly didn't help attendance, they had drawn less than a million fans for the three previous years (1962-1964) prior to the lame duck year. What makes this attendance plunge even more alarming was the fact that the Braves won 86, 84 & 88 respectively during those years. In addition, they had a roster which featured future Hall-of-Famers; Eddie Mathews, Hank Aaron & Warren Spahn on it. I'm sorry, but the fans of Milwaukee didn't deserve that franchise.

[yellowdog]

I realize the Braves attendence had been on a steady decline since their World Series win in '57 despite some decent teams with some very good players. I was just pointing out that the year it hit rock bottom, it was known and had been known for sometime that the team was leaving. So I think you have to throw out '65 (and '64) when indicting the Milwaukee fans for not supporting the Braves.

I've never been really sure what the reason was for the decline in attendence in the late 50s and early 60s, prior to Bartholomay buying the team with the intent of moving to Atlanta. They apparently supported the team well before then. So what happened to change that?

I've read comments by all the prominent players concerning the move. Eddie Mathews and Hank Aaron were the two who were most aphrensive. But their comments semed to reflect a love for Milwaukee rather than any negative feelings toward Atlanta. I'm sure Aaron was concerned about the racial issues of the time. But I know he also must have been aware that, even in the mid 60s, Atlanta was a progressive city in that regard and much different from the rest of the south in general. Still he had to be concerned, that would only be human.

Mathews just expressed his love for Milwaukee. He had played in Atlanta in the minors and had no distaste for it but rather seemed to prefer the small town atmosphere of Milwaukee and the special relationship he had with the fans.

Joe Torre, who wasn't in Milwaukee during the glory days, seemed the most eager of the prominent players to move. He commented that it would be good to play in front of some large crowds for a change. His only concern seemed to be catching in the heat. But even thought that might be a plus if it help him keep his weight down which he said he a a problem doing.

They all seemed to be concerned about the large amount of foul territory in the stadium and also worried about how the ball would carry in the humidity. We all know how that worked out.

But whatever reasons they had for moving to Atlanta, I'm glad they did. They made a lot of baseball fans in this area very happy. And even though, I would have been just as happy (at the time) with an expansion team, I could not imagine the last 39 years without the Braves in Atlanta.

[Greenpeach]

Originally posted by yellowdog
I realize the Braves attendence had been on a steady decline since their World Series win in '57 despite some decent teams with some very good players. I was just pointing out that the year it hit rock bottom, it was known and had been known for sometime that the team was leaving. So I think you have to throw out '65 (and '64) when indicting the Milwaukee fans for not supporting the Braves.

I've never been really sure what the reason was for the decline in attendence in the late 50s and early 60s, prior to Bartholomay buying the team with the intent of moving to Atlanta. They apparently supported the team well before then. So what happened to change that?

I've read comments by all the prominent players concerning the move. Eddie Mathews and Hank Aaron were the two who were most aphrensive. But their comments semed to reflect a love for Milwaukee rather than any negative feelings toward Atlanta. I'm sure Aaron was concerned about the racial issues of the time. But I know he also must have been aware that, even in the mid 60s, Atlanta was a progressive city in that regard and much different from the rest of the south in general. Still he had to be concerned, that would only be human.

Mathews just expressed his love for Milwaukee. He had played in Atlanta in the minors and had no distaste for it but rather seemed to prefer the small town atmosphere of Milwaukee and the special relationship he had with the fans.

Joe Torre, who wasn't in Milwaukee during the glory days, seemed the most eager of the prominent players to move. He commented that it would be good to play in front of some large crowds for a change. His only concern seemed to be catching in the heat. But even thought that might be a plus if it help him keep his weight down which he said he a a problem doing.

They all seemed to be concerned about the large amount of foul territory in the stadium and also worried about how the ball would carry in the humidity. We all know how that worked out.

But whatever reasons they had for moving to Atlanta, I'm glad they did. They made a lot of baseball fans in this area very happy. And even though, I would have been just as happy (at the time) with an expansion team, I could not imagine the last 39 years without the Braves in Atlanta.

I stand corrected about the ownership in the early 1960's. You're right about Perini selling the team to Bartholomay several years pprior to the move to Atlanta. I had forgotten about that fact.

However I must take a small exception with your Hank comment, I've heard Aaron on the radio here in Atlanta several times over the years & he has indicated that because of his childhood in Mobile, Alabama he was very apprehensive about subjecting his family to the segregated South of the mid-1960's. While it's true that Atlanta was one of the more progressive cities in the South, it still wasn't as racially tolerant as Milwaukee at that time.

[DODGER DEB]

Yellowdog and I discussed "WHY did the Braves leave Milwaukee" at length a few months ago on the Atlanta Forum.

As I mentioned then, when WE went to Milwaukee in July 1957 with BROOKLYN, the city was BRAVES CRAZY, almost as much as WE were in BROOKLYN for OUR DODGERS. It was hard to believe that in just a few short years all that "just stopped". To this day, I could not understand just what happened to their "FAN LOYALTY". One possible explanation, and some say the only one, is that Milwaukee only wants a winner and will not support any team for the years in between. It seems to have taken on the same life form now with the Brewers, even with a brand new ballpark. If that is true, then I guess Milwaukee really doesn't deserve to be in the ML..........as several other cities have proven, that they are really NOT ML caliber.

But, for those three days in 1957, one would have thought they ate, slept and drank Braves baseball.......and would forever!

c.


:radio OUR MOMENT IN TIME - OCTOBER 4, 1955 - 3:43PM

[tonypug]

When the Braves moved to Atlanta they had the same surge in attendence as they had when they moved to Milwaukee. After a few years when thr team did not play well they had a very similar dip in attendence, if you check the numbers they were very close. Milwaukee fans were never given the chance to renew their support for the Braves, the fans in Atlanta were given that chance.

[Greenpeach]

Originally posted by tonypug
When the Braves moved to Atlanta they had the same surge in attendence as they had when they moved to Milwaukee. After a few years when thr team did not play well they had a very similar dip in attendence, if you check the numbers they were very close. Milwaukee fans were never given the chance to renew their support for the Braves, the fans in Atlanta were given that chance.

Tony, I have to disagree with you on the assertion that the two situations were similar.

In the Braves 13 years in Milwaukee, they never had a losing season. In addition, during their short stay in Wisconsin the club won two Pennants & a World Championship. However, during their 1st 13 years in Atlanta, the club only won a Western Division title in 1969. Plus, they could muster up only 4 winning seasons during that time span. I don't think that the circumstances were similar at all. The team was much more competitive during their 13-year-run in Milwaukee.

[tonypug]

Greenpeach,I think had the Braves stayed in Milwaukee, the fans would have returned. The Braves attendence reflected the overall League attendence other then the last year. That last year of course, everyone knew was a lame duck year. The first couple of years in Atlanta the fans came out to see a star studded team. When the rebuilding started the fans stopped coming. When the team started winning the fans started coming out again. What would happen now if the Braves fall on hard times? Would the fans stop coming to games again? After a couple of lean years the fans of Milwaukee should have been given a chance.

[Greenpeach]

Tony, we're getting into a very subjective debate here. Let's just say that we agree to disagree on the topic. Obviously, we differ on our views on the fans of Milwaukee.

[The Dude]

So because Milwaukee fans aren't as supportive during losing times, they automatically don't deserve a team? Guess that means yankee fans don't deserve a team either.

Yankee's losing seasons?
1925-5th out of 8th in attendance
1965-2nd out of 10th
1966-5th out of 10th
1967-5th out of 10th
1989-8th out of 14th
1990-9th out of 14th
1991-11th out of 14th
1992-11th out of 14th