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  • #46
    Wow...

    Wow...

    A lot of comments made in this thread about Milwaukee fans kind of offended me. I don't never know where to begin.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by KevinWI View Post
      Wow...

      Wow...

      A lot of comments made in this thread about Milwaukee fans kind of offended me. I don't never know where to begin.
      I for one, would like to hear your reaction,
      Lets get Eddie Basinski elected to the Polish Sports Hall of Fame.
      www.brooklyndodgermemories.com

      Comment


      • #48
        Well. First off, this is what everybody in Milwaukee (meaning me and my friends) have always believed about the Braves moving to Atlanta.

        Around 1962, Bill Bartholomay, an insurance man from Chicago bought the club and was strictly a "investor" owner. He owned the franchise to strictly to make money, and didn't give a damn about Milwaukee, baseball, Hank Aaron or that the Braves had set league-wide attendance records. All he saw were $$$$ and the increasing TV revenues made him seek a bigger market team. The Mayor of Atlanta wooed him, and he moved to Atlanta, which at the time was a "growing regional center".

        Now, about the Wisconsin fans "not caring about baseball". It's true that we are a football state. We just don't have the dedication of St. Louis, New York, or Boston, but we have a good sized demographic of true baseball fans. When the Giants were at Miller Park a few weeks ago, and the local sports media was all abuzz about Barry Bonds, the local FSN Wisconsin interviewed Hank Aaron. The Hammer (who started his career in a minor league team in Wisconsin, and of course played for the Braves pre-Atlanta and later the AL Brewers), said that Wisconsin baseball fans are kind, and his days of playing in Wisconsin are a special memory for him.

        My grandparents and father had season tickets for the Braves, and they went to every home game and cheered on guys like Hank Aaron and Edie Matthews. When the Braves moved away they were absolutely heartbroken, along with several of their friends, and the city in general. The Milwaukee Braves had been a small dynasty, with a collection of pennants and World Series rings. My grandparents became Cubs fans, and refuse to cheer for the Brewers ("I ain't cheering for the Seattle Pilots", my grandmother likes to say about the Brewers) and my dad only became a Brewers fan in the recent Ben Sheets-era (2000 to present).

        Since we're such a hardcore baseball family, it kind of offended me to hear comments like "the novelty of a baseball team had worn off." But thing about this, in the late-1960's, when Bud Selig was advertising Milwaukee for an expansion team, and he got the White Sox to host 9 games at County Stadium that year, those combined 9 sell-out games were more than the rest of the 72 home games of the White Sox at Comiskey. This season, when the Cleveland Indians needed to escape to the roof of Miller Park when The Jake was snowed out, Milwaukee fans showed up and came out to cheer on the Indians despite them not even being the home town team.

        As for the Cubs, the new Brewers owner, Mark Atta-something-or-other (as he's know in my baseball circle), has launched a "take back Miller Park" campaign where they give out free Brewers shirts when the Cubs play, and basically are trying to retake Miller Park, instead of being "Wrigley North". Now, the Cubs @ Brewers games have much more Brewers fans in days past.

        I guess, what my point is. Even though Brewers don't sell out every home game like the Cardinals, Yankees or Red Sox, we still are a proud baseball town.

        OK, rant over.

        PS: Bud Selig is my hero, for bringing baseball back to Milwaukee, and making sure that Hank Aaron hit 755 in Milwaukee. Just wanted to add that.

        PPS: The American League was signed into creation during an owner's meeting that took place in Milwaukee, and the 1901 Milwaukee Brewers were one of the charter AL teams.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Giantfanforever View Post
          Remembering the instant love affair the city of Milwaukee had with the Braves and how such a generally losing franchise was transformed overnight into a contending team, it is hard to believe the bloom was off the rose so soon.

          Even after the last pennant-winner in 1958, the Braves lost only in a playoff with the LA Dodgers the next season and continued to field a contending team throughout their Milwaukee history. Not only did the fans lose MLB, they missed the chance to witness Hank Aaron's pursuit of Babe Ruth's home run record.

          At least they have the Brewers, not that successful a franchise with a couple of exceptions (Harvey's Wall-Bangers). I wonder if the Milwaukee fans wish they still had the Braves with their 14 consecutive division championships?

          Concerning team names, I heartedly agree certain names just go with certain teams and adds to the legacy of baseball. Could Baltimore ever have a team not called the Orioles? One of my greatest disappointments when Denver finally got a team in 1993, they decided to call them the Colorado Rockies instead of the Denver Bears.
          I think you're right. The fan base was spoiled in the early years, then mediocrity set in and the fans were turned off.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by KevinWI View Post
            Well. First off, this is what everybody in Milwaukee (meaning me and my friends) have always believed about the Braves moving to Atlanta.

            Around 1962, Bill Bartholomay, an insurance man from Chicago bought the club and was strictly a "investor" owner. He owned the franchise to strictly to make money, and didn't give a damn about Milwaukee, baseball, Hank Aaron or that the Braves had set league-wide attendance records. All he saw were $$$$ and the increasing TV revenues made him seek a bigger market team. The Mayor of Atlanta wooed him, and he moved to Atlanta, which at the time was a "growing regional center".

            Now, about the Wisconsin fans "not caring about baseball". It's true that we are a football state. We just don't have the dedication of St. Louis, New York, or Boston, but we have a good sized demographic of true baseball fans. When the Giants were at Miller Park a few weeks ago, and the local sports media was all abuzz about Barry Bonds, the local FSN Wisconsin interviewed Hank Aaron. The Hammer (who started his career in a minor league team in Wisconsin, and of course played for the Braves pre-Atlanta and later the AL Brewers), said that Wisconsin baseball fans are kind, and his days of playing in Wisconsin are a special memory for him.

            My grandparents and father had season tickets for the Braves, and they went to every home game and cheered on guys like Hank Aaron and Edie Matthews. When the Braves moved away they were absolutely heartbroken, along with several of their friends, and the city in general. The Milwaukee Braves had been a small dynasty, with a collection of pennants and World Series rings. My grandparents became Cubs fans, and refuse to cheer for the Brewers ("I ain't cheering for the Seattle Pilots", my grandmother likes to say about the Brewers) and my dad only became a Brewers fan in the recent Ben Sheets-era (2000 to present).

            Since we're such a hardcore baseball family, it kind of offended me to hear comments like "the novelty of a baseball team had worn off." But thing about this, in the late-1960's, when Bud Selig was advertising Milwaukee for an expansion team, and he got the White Sox to host 9 games at County Stadium that year, those combined 9 sell-out games were more than the rest of the 72 home games of the White Sox at Comiskey. This season, when the Cleveland Indians needed to escape to the roof of Miller Park when The Jake was snowed out, Milwaukee fans showed up and came out to cheer on the Indians despite them not even being the home town team.

            As for the Cubs, the new Brewers owner, Mark Atta-something-or-other (as he's know in my baseball circle), has launched a "take back Miller Park" campaign where they give out free Brewers shirts when the Cubs play, and basically are trying to retake Miller Park, instead of being "Wrigley North". Now, the Cubs @ Brewers games have much more Brewers fans in days past.

            I guess, what my point is. Even though Brewers don't sell out every home game like the Cardinals, Yankees or Red Sox, we still are a proud baseball town.

            OK, rant over.

            PS: Bud Selig is my hero, for bringing baseball back to Milwaukee, and making sure that Hank Aaron hit 755 in Milwaukee. Just wanted to add that.

            PPS: The American League was signed into creation during an owner's meeting that took place in Milwaukee, and the 1901 Milwaukee Brewers were one of the charter AL teams.
            Thanks for your reply. What you sayb is very true. The move from Milwaukee to Atlanta wasn't about the fans, but about another greedy owner.During the 50's the Braves and Brooklyn Dodgers had a very heated rivalry going. Of course both teame wound up moving due to the greed of their owners.
            Lets get Eddie Basinski elected to the Polish Sports Hall of Fame.
            www.brooklyndodgermemories.com

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by KevinWI View Post
              But thing about this, in the late-1960's, when Bud Selig was advertising Milwaukee for an expansion team, and he got the White Sox to host 9 games at County Stadium that year, those combined 9 sell-out games were more than the rest of the 72 home games of the White Sox at Comiskey.
              Bud and Arthur Allyn had a handshake agreement in 1969 to purchace a majority share and move the White Sox to Milwaukee. The AL put the kibash on the deal 'cause they did not want to surrender Chicago to the NL

              Originally posted by KevinWI View Post
              PS: Bud Selig is my hero, for bringing baseball back to Milwaukee, and making sure that Hank Aaron hit 755 in Milwaukee. Just wanted to add that.
              Amen, Brother! It is trendy to bash Bud but I'll love him forever for bringing the Brewers to Milwaukee and fighting like the devil to keep them here!
              You will be assimilated...
              Resistance is futile...
              Thank you and have a nice day... :-)

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Steve Jeltz View Post
                There are two other reasons that have not been discussed yet. One, was the perception by Milwaukee fans of Perini as an absentee owner who would eventually move the team out of Milwaukee for greener pastures, i.e. Atlanta, as quickly as he moved the Braves from Boston in 1953. Eventually, Perini sold the Braves to Bartholmay in 1962.

                Second, with televison playing a bigger role in all baseball clubs fianancial ledgers, Milwaukee was considered, unfairly or not, as having very little TV market potential when compared to that of Atlanta. Atlanta was considered an untapped TV market gold mine in the mid sixties.
                Those are two very important considerations - the only local ownership was in the minority. Fans knew that, and were very distrustful of the Chicago owners.

                Originally posted by 64Cards View Post
                What I wonder is, when the Braves were making noises about moving, why didn't one of the Milwaukee breweries [Miller, Schlitz, Pabst] step up, purchase the team like AB did with the Cards in 53?
                Miller was in a bit of turmoil at the time - Fred Miller (not the original, natch) died in a private plane accident. He had been one of those minority owners, and Charlie Grimm wrote in his autobiography that had Fred not been killed Charlie was convinced he would have led a successful fight to keep the Braves in town.

                Before anyone says that Milwaukee isn't a baseball town, keep in mind that the fans there went crazy for the White Sox in 68 and 69, a time when Chicago couldn't have cared less about them. Does that mean that the South Side isn't a baseball town?

                Comment


                • #53
                  It was all about the money

                  As Bill Veeck described in his 1965 story for Sports Illustrated, the businessmen that bought the Milwaukee Braves in 1962 were “a group of would-be hotshots, having no connection with the city and little if any background in baseball, coming in to make a quick buck. If their personal fortune depends on taking a team away from fans who once were the most delirious and open-handed of all time—well, that's free enterprise, folks.”

                  Veeck goes on to say that Lou Perini, the owner who brought the Braves to Milwaukee from Boston, could’ve sold the team to local people. And even though there were several local groups interested, he didn't. Instead, he almost pointedly sold the club to a syndicate composed of half a dozen whippersnappers from Chicago, led by Bill Bartholomay.

                  Shortly after they purchased the team, the Carpetbaggers (as Veeck called them) began the process of moving the team to Atlanta. If they could have, they would’ve moved to Georgia for the start of the 1964 season. There were no professional sports teams in the southeastern U.S. at the time and there was money to be made from live attendance, and radio & TV.

                  Milwaukee never failed to draw more than a million fans each year during their first nine seasons in Wisconsin (1953-61), including four years of two million plus. But then attendance fell off significantly in 1962. Maybe it was because of the novelty of a major league team had worn off, maybe the Twins moving to Minneapolis had siphoned off some fans in NW Wisconsin and/or maybe some fans decided to stay home because they could no longer bring carry-ins into County Stadium. Whatever was going on in 1962, by the middle of the 1963 season, Braves fans knew that the team was headed for Atlanta sooner or later.

                  It's interesting to compare the attendance numbers for the Braves and the Cubs from 1953-1965. During those 13 years, the Cubs rarely had winning seasons. Not once during that time did the Cubbies draw a million fans. 900K twice, 800K three times, 700K four times and 600K four times. Did anyone say that Chicago didn’t deserve a National League team then? It took awhile but by 1984, fans finally started showing up at Wrigley Field in large numbers and they’ve continued to do so to this day, even though the Cubs have only made the post-season five times since 1945.

                  I was a young boy growing up in southeast Wisconsin in the late 1950s and early 1960s. The Milwaukee Braves were my team. There were several Hall of Famers and All-Stars on those rosters. Baseball fans here were stunned and depressed when the team left for Atlanta after the 1965 season. Even when the Brewers landed here in 1970, it took several years before we really warmed up to them.

                  As Brewers fans have shown over the past 38 seasons, if you put a competitive team on the field, Wisconsin will support major league baseball in significant numbers.

                  Here’s the link to Bill Veeck’s 1965 SI story about the Carpetbaggers that moved the Braves to Atlanta:

                  http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.c...01/8/index.htm

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by odin0406 View Post
                    As Bill Veeck described in his 1965 story for Sports Illustrated...
                    With all due respect to Mr. Veeck, he's the last guy who should be talking against moving teams...
                    Best posts ever:
                    Originally posted by nymdan
                    Too... much... math... head... hurts...
                    Originally posted by RuthMayBond
                    I understand, I lost all my marbles years ago

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                    • #55
                      Bill Veeck

                      And why is Bill Veeck the last one who should be talking about moving teams? In his MLB front office career with the Cleveland Indians, St Louis Browns and Chicago White Sox, he never moved his franchise. Yes, he wanted to move the Browns in 1953 but who wouldn’t after the team drew an average of only 332,000 fans per season over the previous five years. The Cardinals have always ruled in St Louis.

                      Bill Veeck was co-owner of Milwaukee’s minor league team from 1941-45 and was head of a group that held a controlling interest in the Chicago White Sox from 1959-61. Veeck knew both cities well. And he was familiar with many of the Milwaukee groups that were interesting in owning the Braves as well as the Carpetbaggers from Chicago who bought the Braves in 1962. Bill Veeck is a credible source when discussing why the Braves moved twice in 13 years.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Brownie31 View Post
                        Brooklyn and New York are where those names belong.
                        Of course, the most idiotic situation happened over in
                        the NBA when the Jazz moved to Utah and kept the
                        name.

                        Surely there is a more fitting name with Utah ties!

                        Brownie31
                        the nba also has some teams that moved to cities where the name made sense, for example the Houston Rockets moved here from San Diego
                        Houston Rockets
                        playoffs:1969,75,77,79,80,81,82,85,86,87,88,89,90, 91,93,94,95,96,97,98,99,2004,05,07,08
                        West Champions:81,86,94,95
                        NBA Champions:94,95
                        Houston Astros
                        Playoffs: 1980,86,97,98,99,01,04,05
                        NL west champs: 80,86
                        NL central champs: 97,98,99,01
                        NL Wild Card: 04,05
                        NL Champions: 05
                        Houston Oilers: AFL champs 1960,61
                        Texas Longhorns class of 2012
                        Lufkin Panthers div 2 state champs 2001

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                        • #57
                          franchise shifts.

                          He threatened to move the Indians to LA to get stadium leverage in 1947 and then tried to move the Browns in '53 after only 1 1/2 years of ownership. Those would have been the first franchise moves in baseball history ,and AL history, respectively. So you can hardly say the guy was against franchise shifts.
                          Originally posted by odin0406 View Post
                          And why is Bill Veeck the last one who should be talking about moving teams? In his MLB front office career with the Cleveland Indians, St Louis Browns and Chicago White Sox, he never moved his franchise. Yes, he wanted to move the Browns in 1953 but who wouldn’t after the team drew an average of only 332,000 fans per season over the previous five years. The Cardinals have always ruled in St Louis.

                          Bill Veeck was co-owner of Milwaukee’s minor league team from 1941-45 and was head of a group that held a controlling interest in the Chicago White Sox from 1959-61. Veeck knew both cities well. And he was familiar with many of the Milwaukee groups that were interesting in owning the Braves as well as the Carpetbaggers from Chicago who bought the Braves in 1962. Bill Veeck is a credible source when discussing why the Braves moved twice in 13 years.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Brownieand45sfan View Post
                            He threatened to move the Indians to LA to get stadium leverage in 1947 and then tried to move the Browns in '53 after only 1 1/2 years of ownership. Those would have been the first franchise moves in baseball history ,and AL history, respectively. So you can hardly say the guy was against franchise shifts.
                            Are you forgetting that the St. Louis Browns originated in 1901 as the Milwaukee Brewers and were shifted to St. Louis prior to the start of the 1902 season?

                            Don't forget that the New York Yankees started life as the Baltimore Orioles and were moved in 1903 to New York to resume play as the New York Highlanders, later Yankees.

                            The Browns move was allowed, only AFTER Veeck sold the team to a Baltimore syndicate, headed by then Baltimore mayor Tom D'Alessandro (SP?). I don't think anyone was too heartbroken to see the Browns franchise shifted as most teams reportedly lost money on their road trips to St. Louis, then the westernmost outpost in either league. The American League rid themselves of 2 problems at the same time-money losing trips to St. Louis AND Bill Veeck.
                            Last edited by Aa3rt; 06-30-2008, 06:12 PM.
                            "For the Washington Senators, the worst time of the year is the baseball season." Roger Kahn

                            "People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby.

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                            • #59
                              Technically, that is correct. But those were more of the character of early adjustments to Ban Johnson's transformation of the Western League to a major league. New York and St. Louis were the #1 and #4 most populous cities at the time and huge 19th century baseball towns. He needed those cities for credibility and to be competitive.
                              Originally posted by Aa3rt View Post
                              Are you forgetting that the St. Louis Browns originated in 1901 as the Milwaukee Brewers and were shifted to St. Louis prior to the start of the 1902 season?

                              Don't forget that the New York Yankees started life as the Baltimore Orioles and were moved in 1903 (IIRC) to New York to resume play as the New York Highlanders, later Yankees.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                That may be, but it doesn't change the fact that a 1947 move to Los Angeles would not have been "the first franchise move in baseball history." Modern history (at the time), but by no stretch of the imagination baseball history.

                                I still think you're missing his point, though. Veeck doesn't make the case that moving is itself a bad thing, only that this move was bad. Bad in part because there was local interest in ownership that was deliberately ignored, and bad in part because the team had a strong and loyal fanbase.

                                Bad, finally, because the move was about making money first and baseball second if that.

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