Who Do You Trust?

[Spirit of '55]

Friends:

I notice as I read through the threads that while ALL of us resent O'Malley for hijacking Our Dodgers, SOME of us express a resentment toward the team for "abandoning" us.

For myself, I blame (1) O'Malley, (2) New York City and its power brokers, and (3) Major League Baseball for engineering the move. I DON'T blame the team or individual players for the move, who, fifty years ago, had virtually NO options but to do what they were told or else quit the sport.

Considering how many of our Dodgers (and ex-Giants) returned to New York to fill out the early Mets rosters, it's safe to say that the players held Brooklyn in endearing affection.

For those of you who BLAME THE TEAM AND THE PLAYERS---Why?

I'm curious to know.

[MATHA531]

I don't know anybody who blames the players...they were under contract and had no choice....as resentful as I am and always will be, I have never uttered one word blaming the players.

As far as your list, once again I always ask, what was the City of New York to do if the law clearly indicated that what O'Malley claimed the only thing was he wanted was clearly, and there is no question about this, ILLEGAL. In my book, that's called extortion.

[kingv]

My list might be a little different from most...

1 - O'Malley
1a - Frick
1b - Giles
2 - Rosalind Wyman
3 - Stoneham

1, 1a, and 1b require no comment. I tend to agree with Matha in that it's tough to point a finger at the City. I get the sense that Mayor Wagner did whatever he could within his power to keep the Dodgers in town. I can't see how Moses was under any obligation to kiss O'Malley's @$$ either. Moses might not have been a particularly likeable guy, but it appears that he hated O'Malley as much as anyone who's lived through or sought the truth about this crime after the fact. That's gotta count for *something* positive.

As for Mrs. Wyman, maybe she's truly a fine woman and did many good things for the people she represented. However, I don't see how she had any business petitioning teams directly. She should have been pestering MLB instead of trying to improve LA's stature at any cost. If she never writes that letter and stays persistant then O'Malley has no ace-in-the-hole to play and I believe in that scenario it would have been far more difficult for him to leave Brooklyn. Maybe she should be 1c. Heck, maybe she should be 1 and O'Malley 1a.........naaaah. It's kind of ironic that her maiden name is Wiener.

Stoneham makes my list for allowing O'Malley to play him like a fiddle.

[Let's Go Mets!]

My list might be a little different from most...

1 - O'Malley
1a - Frick
1b - Giles
2 - Rosalind Wyman
3 - Stoneham


As for Mrs. Wyman, ......She should have been pestering MLB instead of trying to improve LA's stature at any cost. If she never writes that letter and stays persistant then O'Malley has no ace-in-the-hole to play and I believe in that scenario it would have been far more difficult for him to leave Brooklyn. Maybe she should be 1c. Heck, maybe she should be 1 and O'Malley 1a.........naaaah. It's kind of ironic that her maiden name is Wiener.

O'Malley will always be #1....head and shoulders above the rest!

It's good to see that Robert Moses is not on your list.

However, the more I learn of her, the higher Wyman is rising on my list.

She belittled the City of New York too, "Imagine losing not one, but two, ballclubs...." she laughs.

[donzblock]

O'Malley will always be #1....head and shoulders above the rest!

It's good to see that Robert Moses is not on your list.

However, the more I learn of her, the higher Wyman is rising on my list.

She belittled the City of New York too, "Imagine losing, not one, but two, ballclubs...." she laughs.

It's too bad she wasn't more like her ma, who really could act when she kept her mouth shut.

[aqib]

Wyman later helped engineer the move of the Lakers to LA. What can we say, she likes stealing other people's teams

[scott120]

only myself

[six4three]

Friends:

I notice as I read through the threads that while ALL of us resent O'Malley for hijacking Our Dodgers, SOME of us express a resentment toward the team for "abandoning" us.

For myself, I blame (1) O'Malley, (2) New York City and its power brokers, and (3) Major League Baseball for engineering the move. I DON'T blame the team or individual players for the move, who, fifty years ago, had virtually NO options but to do what they were told or else quit the sport.

Considering how many of our Dodgers (and ex-Giants) returned to New York to fill out the early Mets rosters, it's safe to say that the players held Brooklyn in endearing affection.

For those of you who BLAME THE TEAM AND THE PLAYERS---Why?

I'm curious to know.

O'Malley was the team. You can blame the Dodgers as a whole, because Dodgers ownership was behind it.

That's not the same as blaming the players - I don't know anybody who actually holds the players accountable.

As for Major League Baseball, no such entity existed in 1957. You can blame the National League, I suppose, although it's hard to see how.

[KCGHOST]

She belittled the City of New York too, "Imagine losing, not one, but two, ballclubs...." she laughs.

Says the lady whose city has lost two NFL franchises, the Rams and the Raiders!!!

[stejay]

You can't blame Moses. All he did was say that if the Dodgers, orthe Giants for that matter, would want a new stadium, then it would be in Flushing. He didn't tell the Dodgers to move to LA. Also, what was Wyman going to do? The Dodgers were looking to move, and a big franchise like that, who wouldn't want them in their city?? Also, Stoneham isn't to blame for the Dodgers moving. I'd hate to say it, but the Dodgers are never coming back, and we should live with that. It pains me to say it.

[Perseus71]

You have to blame every greedy NYC politician. Also, please remember Robert Moses was a SCUMBAG just like the rest of them, so he should be in the top 5 of every list of New York City All Time Traitors. I don't know who in their right mind would say Robert Moses was "not instrumental" in the teams leaving New York, but I beg to differ. I shudder everytime I walk by 23rd St and 1st ave and see that guys name on the building projects there. I'm not sure why the Westside of NY wasn't proposed, but it sounds like Moses could have given them more options(perhaps he was looking for some money from O'Malley).

In New York, the city hall insiders are so corrupt and embedded in the system that you cannot get anything done if you do not work with them.

[MATHA531]

You have to blame every greedy NYC politician. Also, please remember Robert Moses was a SCUMBAG just like the rest of them, so he should be in the top 5 of every list of New York City All Time Traitors. I don't know who in their right mind would say Robert Moses was "not instrumental" in the teams leaving New York, but I beg to differ. I shudder everytime I walk by 23rd St and 1st ave and see that guys name on the building projects there. I'm not sure why the Westside of NY wasn't proposed, but it sounds like Moses could have given them more options(perhaps he was looking for some money from O'Malley).

In New York, the city hall insiders are so corrupt and embedded in the system that you cannot get anything done if you do not work with them.

Unfortunately, while Moses was in many respects what you called him...in the Brooklyn Dodger situation, he was not the problem if you read and understand the facts.

It is very clear, not subject to almost any debate, that according to NYS law it was ILLEGAL to use eminent domain to take property belonging to one private entity (the Pennsylvania Railroad who in 1956 owned the land and property) and give it to another private entity (Walter F. O'Malley)...eminent domain is used to build public properties such as schools, highways, whatever. O'Malley wanted to rape the taxpayers of the City of New York to let him build his own ballpark..something which no other municipality had done...while he was reaping in millions and was the biggest money maker in the National League??????

And how, praytell, would all these cars from Long Island get to Atlantic/Flatbush...on what highway.....oh you mean an extension to the BQ Expressway which is a parking lot at the best of times....

Look, Bob Moses did lots of terrilbe things during his time in office, but in 20/20 hindsight he, as a public servant, could not break the law and while many have said he had unlimited power, the taxpayer suits that would have resulted from this would have stalled the project for a decade (see Ratner, Bruce)...and you can bet O'Malley would have been long gone....

How was he going to finance his ballpark...oh yes he would take the games off free television (all Brooklyn home games and 2/3 of the road games were on free television in the 1950's BTW exclusing the 11 games played in NY which the Giants televised) and put little boxes on the television and have people pay to see the games...too bad the technology did not exist in 1956 and was not to exist for another 15 years.

O'Malley was a lawyer and had to know the laW prohibited Moses from bowing to his extortion..(of course the politicians in LA had no such morals)...it was all an attempt to make him not look like the bad guy and of course he finally suceeded in being elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame which will forever tarnish the image of the Hall of Fame.

O'Malley's greed showed people once and for all that it didn't matter how much you game to a ball team...money spoke louder to this piece of garbage than anything else.

And of course with all the lies being thrown out by the imposter organization on the left coast and such as Vin Scully ( a great broadcaster and understandably an O'Mally supporter but facts, Vinny, are facts) and others, they got HBO to run a documentary with all the half truths making it seem like the land at Atlantic/Flatbush was Moses' to hand over to O'Malley, that Ebbets Field was falling apart (no older than Fenway Park and Wrigley Field that are still going strong today).

And then again what did Bob Moses offer....a very lucrative lease to city property, which was his to negotiate about, at the confluence of the Long Island, Van Wych Expressway and the Grand Central Parkway, just blocks from where a great World's Fair would be held in 1964...and the jerks at HBO make it seem ha ha what an idiotic solution that would have been eh.

Of course, in perfect 20/20 hindsight, Flushing Meadow was the correct place as the Mets, playing under the same lease Moses wanted to negotiate with O'Malley, one of the best leases any baseball team has ever had at a municipal facility, are now worth far more than the imposter organization on the left coast.

And Atlantic/Flatbush still has not seen a shovel turned to build a basketball arena...it was the wrong place for a ballpart; that much is obvious.

No, there is only one person responsible for the theft of the Brooklyn franchise, and that is Walter F. O'Malley abetted by a do nothing Commissioner of Baseball named Ford C. Frick whose only comment on the situation about what was being done to the Brooklyn fans was, "No big deal. They'll root for the Yankees." j And then there was another bird brain named Warren Giles who, when the NL voted to deprive itseof of any vestige of national recognition by vacating New York and Brooklyn uttered the memorable words, "Who needs New York?"

Yup these people really stepped up to the plate for baseball fans who supported the team through thick and thin. They are the ones primarily responsible for this black moment in baseball history topped off by putting the perp in the Hall of Fame next month.

[MATHA531]

Just one other thought for all those who continue to put the blame on Bob Moses...

About a quarter of a century ago, a man whose name I think was Robert Caro, wrote a 750 page book on the life and times of Bob Moses called the Power Broker. By and large it was a very anti Moses book and makes some astonighing denouncements of Moses' racism (for example why he built the overpasses on the Southern and Northern State Parkways so low; all the better to keep out the dark skinned people from the City from his beaches and parks on Long Island)....but the fact is that in this 750 page criticism of Moses, there is only one sentence regarding the Brooklyn Dodger situation. Obviously in writing a book to denounce Moses, if there was any truth to the bs that Moses was primarily at fault for the theft of the Brooklyn franchise, Caro would have seized upon it.

This blame Bob Moses bs is of very recent origin on the part of certain elements within the Los Angeles National League baseball club, the imposter organization which has stolen the name Dodgers from the good citizens of Brooklyn, to try to get O'Malley elected to the baseball Hall of Fame before they passed from the scene. Unfortunately, they suceeded but those of us here, and any fair minded person who just will look at the facts, will agree that the Hall of Fame might just as well allow Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson in if they allow a low life like O'Mally in which we will all have to gag on, unfortunately, in a couple of weeks.

It's too bad the facts have to get in the way of a good story, the credo, of course, of any newspaper and magazine writer.

[mandrake]

While I agree with virtually everything that our friend MATHA531 so eloquently mentioned, I would like to add the following.

Many teams did not televise home games since they wanted to get fans to come to the ballpark. They would use the road games on TV to get fans to buy tickets. The Dodgers (and Giants) purposely put home games on TV to hurt the gate. TV was such a new toy, a novelty, where people were proud to own one and why not put your feet up in your own apartment...open a cold Rheingold or Schaeffer... and be the king! Why jump on the subway or bus and head to Ebbets when you can flip on your new TV? Even more so, why risk your life going to 155 St at night when you can change the channel from 9 to 11 and boomph......there's the Jints.

The slimeball was jealous of the Braves attendance, even though it was short lived. He knew that the Dodgers TV and Radio more than compensated for the Braves spike at the gate, but he was so greedy he wanted more. (BTW, the Giants had the 2nd best TV/radio contract so all of that 'Stoneham was losing his shirt' stuff is a load of crap!). And yes, slimeball did think that he could charge everyone a buck for pay per view, similar to airport TV's at one time. Amazing that slimeball only put the road games on TV when he crawled to LA !! He was trying to drive UP the gate in LA, while he drove down the gate in Brooklyn.

There are a few reasons why fans detest slimeball and they give Stoneham some slack: 1) Once the projects opened in 1951 next to the Polo Grounds, the place was toast and the Jints HAD to move quickly 2)The Dodgers were the richest franchise in sports, even much richer than the Yankees in '57, and they had much more time to look for a new site than the Jints 3) Stoneham admitted the move was a mistake 4) Stoneham faced the music like a man when he came back to Shea on Willie Mays night; OMalley never had the guts to do that !!!!

Robert Moses was an arrogant jerk (he drove his BQE right thru my neighborhood) but it was the slimeball who is responsible. period. And no HBO story can change that. And Vin Scully should not go along with the lie.

[six4three]

I hate to pile on, but....

I'm not sure why the Westside of NY wasn't proposed, but it sounds like Moses could have given them more options(perhaps he was looking for some money from O'Malley).

In the mid-1950s the Giants considered a West Side location, at the West Side Highway in the low 60s (where Trump Place now sits). The land was privately owned, so the city could not legally have seized it, and in the end the real estate price was just too high.

If you're thinking about the MTA yards, that land belongs to the state agency and is not for the city to give anybody, as the recent debacle shows....