Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Who Do You Trust?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Spirit of '55
    replied
    Dear Deb, Donz, and Other Friends:

    I really am shocked that anybody would think that the players had any voice in the move at all. If they'd complained, O'Money would have fired them outright, or simply not chosen to pick up on their next annual contract. And I GUARANTEE that NO OTHER TEAM ANYWHERE would have thought twice about it, especially in 1955. Even today, it would take big brass monkeys to stand up to management, particularly with nine gazillion dollar five year contracts on the line.

    Nothing against the 'Clones, but that's what they are---Clones. Not OUR Bums. Beach Bums. Uncle Fred may have brought baseball back to Brooklyn, but he certainly hasn't imbued his people with an appreciation of what they are and what they represent. Outside Keyspan, Jackie and Pee Wee may not be embracing each other, after all---maybe they're just holding each other up so they don't faint.

    Oy.

    Leave a comment:


  • DODGER DEB
    replied
    Originally posted by Spirit of '55 View Post
    Friends:

    During my recent visit to Keyspan Park to see the Beach Bums, I was accosted by a staffer who got REALLY MAD that I'd wear a BROOKLYN DODGER hat to the park.

    "Traitors!" said she.

    "Blame Da Big Oom," I answered. "The players had nothing to do with it."

    "Yeah, I guess. They didn't have a choice."

    It AMAZES me anybody can be p.o.'d at the TEAM. Any additional thoughts on this subject?

    This is what WE ran into trying to plan the 50th anniversary celebration of OUR 1955 World Championship. While not everyone thought like this, many people asked "why the players went along with it".

    THE PLAYERS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MOVE! BELIEVE ME WHEN I TELL YOU, THEY DIDN'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT THE FINAL DECISION UNTIL SHORTLY BEFORE WE DID.

    NONE OF THEN, and I do mean NONE OF THEM, wanted to LEAVE BROOKLYN. THEY WERE VERY HAPPY HERE. THEY knew they would NEVER FIND FANS WHO SUPPORTED THEM LIKE WE DID IN BROOKLYN, anywhere,.......and THEY WERE RIGHT!

    c.

    Leave a comment:


  • donzblock
    replied
    Originally posted by Spirit of '55 View Post
    Friends:

    During my recent visit to Keyspan Park to see the Beach Bums, I was accosted by a staffer who got REALLY MAD that I'd wear a BROOKLYN DODGER hat to the park.

    "Traitors!" said she.

    "Blame Da Big Oom," I answered. "The players had nothing to do with it."

    "Yeah, I guess. They didn't have a choice."

    It AMAZES me anybody can be p.o.'d at the TEAM. Any additional thoughts on this subject?
    That staffer should be fired or doused with water.

    Leave a comment:


  • Spirit of '55
    replied
    Friends:

    During my recent visit to Keyspan Park to see the Beach Bums, I was accosted by a staffer who got REALLY MAD that I'd wear a BROOKLYN DODGER hat to the park.

    "Traitors!" said she.

    "Blame Da Big Oom," I answered. "The players had nothing to do with it."

    "Yeah, I guess. They didn't have a choice."

    It AMAZES me anybody can be p.o.'d at the TEAM. Any additional thoughts on this subject?

    Leave a comment:


  • Let's Go Mets!
    replied
    Originally posted by MSUlaxer27 View Post

    From what I've read, Drysdale was happy to be going home....


    That's not what he told me. In the early 80's I commented to him, ".....after the Dodgers and Giants moved, you guys weren't around to see the dark cloud that hung over the City". Big D replied, "None of the ballplayers ever wanted to move, not to mention that we didn't know much about what was going on anyway. Hey, I'm from California and I wasn't in favor of it. I loved playing in Brooklyn!"
    Last edited by Let's Go Mets!; 07-01-2008, 04:23 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • VIBaseball
    replied
    There's an article coming out at some point that I'm keen to read. I can't tell exactly where the author comes down, but I get the impression from the title that the onus shifts back to O'Malley.

    It's called "Revising the Revisionists: Walter O'Malley, Robert Moses, and the Death of the Brooklyn Dodgers" -- the author, Henry Fetter, is an attorney in L.A. and the author of the book Taking on the Yankees: Winning and Losing in the Business of Baseball.

    http://www.sabr.org/sabr.cfm?a=cms,c,2573,34,0

    Leave a comment:


  • aqib
    replied
    Originally posted by MSUlaxer27 View Post
    I don't think that in that climate 11 players returning to NYC is in anyway indicative of an "endearing affection" former area players held for Brooklyn.

    I've never thought that the players should be held to blame for the franchise shift (although if you really wanted to split hairs...what would have happened had all the players for both franchises refused to report to the relocated clubs in LA and SF?!).

    The players would be in effect "witnesses to the crime". The only action they could have taken would be to refuse to report. As only a minority of the players were New Yorkers...it is highly unlikely they would have taken this action.

    Are the players blameless? In 21st Century hindsight with the Civil Rights movement, Vietnam war protests, the Curt Flood decision and free agency behind us...we now know that there were some actions they might or could have taken...but in 1957 it is not likely they would have thought to do anything. Blameless, yes...innocent, less likely.
    Finally, from the players standpoint...they probably didn't care...it always matters more to the fans than it does to the afore mentioned principals, but as LA's attendance has proven, fans are entirely replaceable, which is why they are rarely factored into the equation.

    In all fairness to Wyman...she was a member of the city council...and for whatever her personal beliefs could not have written that letter without the approval of the rest of the city council (as she mentions that she is acting on their behalf in the wire).
    Well to your first point, I think there was an element of affection for the city when the players returned to be Mets. Who knows what happened behind the scenes, some may have asked to be left unprotected in order to go back. You have a guy like Gil Hodges who still maintained a home in Brooklyn. On the flip side it obviously didn't mean much to Duke Snider who requested a trade after one season. But you'd have to look at each play individually.

    The players I doubt could have held out since there was no place for them to go to. I wonder though what would have happened if say one of them wore a Brooklyn hat during a game. When the old Browns moved to Baltimore it stirred a controversy when Steve Everritt wore a Browns bandana on the sidelines of a Ravens game, Antonio Langham meanwhile got some heat for wearing a Browns shirt during an interview and later while talking with a member of the Cleveland media said he wanted to come back to play for the New Browns in 99.

    As for Wyman, if you are a Brooklynite you hate her, if you are a Los Angelino you love her. How would Bill Shea have looked had they stolen the Reds and/or Pirates instead of forcing expansion? In NY he would still be every bit the hero he is considered today.

    Leave a comment:


  • Barack Obama
    replied
    Originally posted by MSUlaxer27 View Post
    I agree. I was just pointing out that the players did have an "option". Although this option would be like cutting off your leg to save your life.
    More like cutting off your leg to save the neighbor's cat.

    Leave a comment:


  • MSUlaxer27
    replied
    Originally posted by six4three View Post
    They would never have played baseball again.

    No way we can hold them responsible for not sinking their careers in protest.
    I agree. I was just pointing out that the players did have an "option". Although this option would be like cutting off your leg to save your life.

    Leave a comment:


  • six4three
    replied
    Originally posted by MSUlaxer27 View Post
    I've never thought that the players should be held to blame for the franchise shift (although if you really wanted to split hairs...what would have happened had all the players for both franchises refused to report to the relocated clubs in LA and SF?!).
    They would never have played baseball again.

    No way we can hold them responsible for not sinking their careers in protest.

    Leave a comment:


  • MSUlaxer27
    replied
    Originally posted by Spirit of '55 View Post
    Friends:

    I notice as I read through the threads that while ALL of us resent O'Malley for hijacking Our Dodgers, SOME of us express a resentment toward the team for "abandoning" us.

    For myself, I blame (1) O'Malley, (2) New York City and its power brokers, and (3) Major League Baseball for engineering the move. I DON'T blame the team or individual players for the move, who, fifty years ago, had virtually NO options but to do what they were told or else quit the sport.

    Considering how many of our Dodgers (and ex-Giants) returned to New York to fill out the early Mets rosters, it's safe to say that the players held Brooklyn in endearing affection.

    For those of you who BLAME THE TEAM AND THE PLAYERS---Why?

    I'm curious to know.
    9 Brooklyn Dodgers and 2 New York Giants played for the Mets. More Milwaukee Braves (13) played for the Mets than the either of the former NYC clubs. As it is pointed out above...prior to free agency...if a player wanted to continue playing MLB they would have to play for the team that held their rights (case in point Johnny Antonelli retired instead of becoming a Met). I don't think that in that climate 11 players returning to NYC is in anyway indicative of an "endearing affection" former area players held for Brooklyn.

    I've never thought that the players should be held to blame for the franchise shift (although if you really wanted to split hairs...what would have happened had all the players for both franchises refused to report to the relocated clubs in LA and SF?!).

    From what I've read, Drysdale was happy to be going home...still he really had no control over that.

    I look at it as the franchise shift was engineered by O'Malley, abetted by Stoneham (who was leaving anyway), Moses and the NL and encouraged by the LA City Council. All were somewhat culpable...if the franchise shift was criminal...then at the sentencing O'Malley would receive the heaviest sentence followed by the rest in decreasing severity.

    The players would be in effect "witnesses to the crime". The only action they could have taken would be to refuse to report. As only a minority of the players were New Yorkers...it is highly unlikely they would have taken this action.

    Are the players blameless? In 21st Century hindsight with the Civil Rights movement, Vietnam war protests, the Curt Flood decision and free agency behind us...we now know that there were some actions they might or could have taken...but in 1957 it is not likely they would have thought to do anything. Blameless, yes...innocent, less likely.
    Finally, from the players standpoint...they probably didn't care...it always matters more to the fans than it does to the afore mentioned principals, but as LA's attendance has proven, fans are entirely replaceable, which is why they are rarely factored into the equation.

    In all fairness to Wyman...she was a member of the city council...and for whatever her personal beliefs could not have written that letter without the approval of the rest of the city council (as she mentions that she is acting on their behalf in the wire).

    Leave a comment:


  • Let's Go Mets!
    replied
    Originally posted by MATHA531 View Post
    Give me a break...an honorable man he wasn't and on that alone he has no freakin business being in the Hall of Fame...period...end of discussion...but nobody is ever told this when they call him a "visionary." He was the epitome of evil, as any thinking person can easily see,,,,,,
    Walter O'Malley being in the Hall of Fame is the biggest blow of all.

    Put his plaque between Ford Frick and Warren Giles.
    Last edited by Let's Go Mets!; 07-01-2008, 10:08 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • MATHA531
    replied
    BTW...

    Just another thought to show what a low life piece of garbage O'Malley was and how lacking he was to even begin to be considered for the Hall of Fame...

    During the 1956 World Series with the Dodgers playing for the World Championship, there he was entertaining the vermin from Los Angeles trying to steal the team. After the Dodgers lost the World Series in 7 games when Don Newcombe vaporized in the early innings of the 7th game, the Dodgers went on a junket to Japan. On the way back, the team stopped in LA, and O'Malley was flown over the land the city vermin in LA were willing to hand over to him (no marality there of course) and he told them he was coming and not to worry that he had to play the 1957 season in Brooklyn but it was a done deal.

    So this low life spent the 1957 season trying to tell the people in Brooklyn to put pressure on the city politicians to give in to his extortion while at the same time he was

    1. buying a plane to transport his team to and from the left coast.

    2. Trading the Dodger franchise in Ft. Worth to Phil Wrigley for the Cub franchise in Los Angeles.

    And of course in May 1957, it was announced the NL had given permission to the Dodgers and Giants to vacate NY but he still claimed this was just to protect the slim eventuality the city officials in NY would not give in to his extortion.

    Give me a break...an honorable man he wasn't and on that alone he has no freakin business being in the Hall of Fame...period...end of discussion...but nobody is ever told this when they call him a "visionary." He was the epitome of evil as any thinking person can easily, if they are interested in the true facts, should be easily able to see.

    Leave a comment:


  • MATHA531
    replied
    Originally posted by Perseus71 View Post
    O'Malley will always be the one to blame, no doubt about it, this was his club. That being said, Robert Moses is still and will always be a scumbag. Nobody truly wanted to keep these teams in "the city". The Mets got the best deal out of all of this in the end because they get to be the keepers of NY NL history and their overall team value is greater than both the Dodgers and Giants.

    I have to give credit to the city of Seattle and I hope, by some miracle, they keep the Sonics. I have no idea how Oklahoma can support an NBA team, but some rich men are orchestrating this.
    I'll ask you a simple question....if it was clearly illegal to take the property at Atlantic/Flatbush from the Pennsylvania Railroad (and there is nobody who disputes that)...and the slimeball had made it clear that the only place he would accept was Atlantic/Flatbush, what was there for Moses or any of the other NYC politicians to do??????? Bow to this extortion, which is what it was. Personally, I believe O'Malley knew there was legally nothing that Moses or anybody else could do so he makes this demand, as if there was really ever going to be a ballpark at Atlantic/Flatbush, which as I noted above was absolutely the wrong place to put a ballpark, to try to justify for history the crime he was about to perpetrate on the Brooklyn fans.

    It was O'Malley who did this..one in a million...very few other human beings would have done this and there is absolutely nobody, nobody at all, who can deny this.

    Leave a comment:


  • donzblock
    replied
    Originally posted by Perseus71 View Post
    You have to blame every greedy NYC politician. Also, please remember Robert Moses was a SCUMBAG just like the rest of them, so he should be in the top 5 of every list of New York City All Time Traitors. I don't know who in their right mind would say Robert Moses was "not instrumental" in the teams leaving New York, but I beg to differ. I shudder everytime I walk by 23rd St and 1st ave and see that guys name on the building projects there. I'm not sure why the Westside of NY wasn't proposed, but it sounds like Moses could have given them more options(perhaps he was looking for some money from O'Malley).

    In New York, the city hall insiders are so corrupt and embedded in the system that you cannot get anything done if you do not work with them.
    If you are implying that Moses was dishonest and was looking for a bribe, you may need to rethink that. Moses was insufferably arrogant, but I recall reading that he died with only $90,000 in his bank account, so I don't think he was dishonest. Has anybody read anything about Moses that would call into question his honesty?

    Leave a comment:

Ad Widget

Collapse
Working...
X