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“So, why are you so incensed that the Dodgers moved out of Brooklyn?”

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  • “So, why are you so incensed that the Dodgers moved out of Brooklyn?”

    Back when “The Ghosts of Flatbush” came out, a Yankee fan asked me this question. And when you think about it, he had a point. I have been a Mets fan as long as I can remember. I was born 10 years after the Dodgers left. While I was born in Brooklyn, I grew up on Long Island. I live in Brooklyn now, and did for a few years earlier this decade, but for most of my adult life I have lived elsewhere – 3 years in Syracuse, 6 years in Washington, DC, 5 years in Chicago, and the rest on Long Island.

    There is the eminent domain aspect (O’Malley wanted the state to take and give it to him for his stadium). While I am no Ron Paul supporter, I do get up in arms over abuses of the power (and taking property to give to a private organization is in my mind an abuse). Still, eminent domain is not exactly something that causes you to choose a sports team.

    So what was it then?

    My parents were Brooklyn born and they lamented the Dodgers leaving until the day they died. My father once told me the best Christmas present I ever gave him was a laminated and mounted front page of the Daily News the day the Dodgers won (the famous “Who’s a Bum”). The loyalty the Dodgers generated is unmatched in American professional sports (the closest you can probably get is soccer in places like Brazil, Argentina, Italy or Spain, where people literally bleed for their local clubs).

    And it went both ways -- the players seemed to be a real part of the fabric of Brooklyn.

    Could Jackie Robinson have happened anywhere else?

    The famous praying for Gil Hodges?

    My mother, who knew hardly anything about sports, 40 years later whining about Bobby Thompson?

    People in my family crying when Roy Campanella died?

    In an era before sports became the license to print money that it is today, the Dodgers were a money generating machine. They were popular beyond belief. They were not the Expos, getting 8,000 a game when the league average was 25,000 or the second team in a declining city like the Braves, Browns or A’s. But they moved anyway.

    So I guess I get incensed with the Dodgers moving out is that was robbed and something that should have been mine. The Dodgers should have been my team. And I should have been able to join in to listening to the stories. The fact they were extremely profitable. The fact that the tore the heart out of Brooklyn.

    So “Let’s Go Mets” but I will still wonder what I lost.
    Let's go Mets!

  • #2
    You lost a lot, the actual cultural feeling of family connection between the fans and the Brooklyn dodgers and Lot's of great baseball in a great place with lots of baseball history and lore. It's a shame.
    Imagine during base ball season walking down the street and hearing the game from other people radio's as you go by, you might miss a call here and there, but you could have caught most of it. Where just about everybody was talking baseball Brooklyn baseball from the newsstand to the candy store to the barbershop.
    I guess they were talking about in the offices too, the ones I was in, seemed
    to be. Oh, yea, we talked about a lot of other things, but the brooks came up as bout as often as a how's your mother? last year, this year, next year it was all one big thing. This was a real tangible thing, not looking back with rose colored glasses. Things weren't perfect, strife, poverty, fear of war, but there was a sense of security and how much did we lose? pennants and world series, yet, it made us closer as fans and as a borough. The Brooklyn dodgers did that, the great melting pot of Ebbets field. isn't that strange? to think a baseball team that could do that?. How can you forget that?
    You missed a lot and it is a shame. Ebbets field was electric I was born in 39 so I speak as a child who grew up with it and as a teenager who saw it end. Brooklyn loved it's bums, we who were there and still alive, still do.
    bb the dd

    Comment


    • #3
      It literally ripped my heart and soul out when O'Malley stuck my boys in a suitcase and flew away to the west coast. We oldtime Dodger fans agree on one thing: Walter O'Malley was a pig. However, we oldtime Dodger fans agree on little else. Personally, I HATE that the Dodgers are now 3,000 miles away, but I never held it against "the laundry"..............to me, the Dodgers are the Dodgers. Plain and simple. THE DODGERS. My heart still skips a beat when I see those snow-white jerseys with "DODGERS" across the front. I always doubted that the old fans weren't cheering like mad when the LA Dodgers won the 1959 World Series with Alston, Koufax, Drysdale, Podres, Snider, Furillo, Hodges, Labine, Gilliam, Zimmer, etc. Not to mention Pee Wee Reese as their 3rd base coach. And when they swept the Yankees in four straight in 1963, there was much cheering (and tears) in Brooklyn.
      you can take the Dodgers out of Brooklyn, but you can't take the Brooklyn out of the DODGERS
      http://brooklyndodgermemories.freeforums.org/

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by penncentralpete View Post
        It literally ripped my heart and soul out when O'Malley stuck my boys in a suitcase and flew away to the west coast. We oldtime Dodger fans agree on one thing: Walter O'Malley was a pig. However, we oldtime Dodger fans agree on little else. Personally, I HATE that the Dodgers are now 3,000 miles away, but I never held it against "the laundry"..............to me, the Dodgers are the Dodgers. Plain and simple. THE DODGERS. My heart still skips a beat when I see those snow-white jerseys with "DODGERS" across the front. I always doubted that the old fans weren't cheering like mad when the LA Dodgers won the 1959 World Series with Alston, Koufax, Drysdale, Podres, Snider, Furillo, Hodges, Labine, Gilliam, Zimmer, etc. Not to mention Pee Wee Reese as their 3rd base coach. And when they swept the Yankees in four straight in 1963, there was much cheering (and tears) in Brooklyn.
        But remember, I was born 10 years after the Dodgers left. So I personally had no stake in them. As for my father, he so hated the Dodgers for leaving he rooted for the YANKEES in the Dodger-Yankee World Series when I was a kid. To him, the Mets were the continuation of the Brooklyn Dodgers.


        Originally posted by dodger dynamo View Post
        You lost a lot, the actual cultural feeling of family connection between the fans and the Brooklyn dodgers and Lot's of great baseball in a great place with lots of baseball history and lore. It's a shame.
        I think that is a big part of it. The Dodgers were supposed to be my team. Sports is really a tradition, passed down. I was thinking about that yesterday, when I was at Citi Field. The new stadium is great, but I was telling my wife it was a bit sad. I was watching my kids (3 and 5) bounce around the stadium and thinking about how many times my father took me to Shea (one of my first memories is of a game at Shea). How I would love the first sight of the stadium when we drove along the LIE and how excited I would be walking through the parking lot.

        Or how when I got older, I would take the LIRR to the game with friends and get the GA seats for $3.

        Or the taste of the hot dogs.

        Or the guys selling pretzels (3 for a dollar) as you left the stadium.

        The Dodgers should have been my team. So maybe that is why I still get incensed with it.
        Let's go Mets!

        Comment


        • #5
          Mostly we all get incensed by it, but for many of us the Mets was a continuation of New York NL baseball, not the Brooklyn dodgers. Don't get me wrong I'm not knocking the Mets it's just they really are two seperate teams.
          Some old dodger fans did continue to follow the dodgers (and all hated and still hate O'malley), Some became Met's fans, some stopped watching baseball all together. I was drafted in the fall of 58 and I like the dodgers were moved to California, me and the dodger players against our will. So I look at the team that way, I'm able to separate the team from the man. I saw the games in La during the 59 series, Hodges, Furillo, Snider, pee wee, Koufax, podres these were "Brooklyn" Dodgers. I stopped following base ball for many years after Gil Hodges retired. I don't hate the team, I hate their 3,000 miles away, I also dislike the way O'malley tried to excise "Brooklyn" from the dodgers that breeds more hostility. I think if an effort had been made to still acknowledge their roots in a more tangible way over the years, many would have a softer view point, Some still wouldn't. For years it was the team begins and ends in La that their was no connection to Brooklyn.
          Then when they need to summon up their history to suit their own purposes oh, then it's OK to speak of Zack wheat, uncle Robbie, dazzy Vance (who has a number, is in the HOF and doesn't have his number retired by the team) and Jackie Robinson. The rest of the Time they don't know who these people are. I was hoping after the team was sold they'd re-embrace their past, well it's changed hands twice now and they move out of vero beach, yea, right. Maybe the next owner will try. You've got a right to feel incensed.
          battlin bake, the dodger dynamo

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Anthony View Post
            Back when “The Ghosts of Flatbush” came out, a Yankee fan asked me this question. And when you think about it, he had a point. I have been a Mets fan as long as I can remember. I was born 10 years after the Dodgers left. While I was born in Brooklyn, I grew up on Long Island. I live in Brooklyn now, and did for a few years earlier this decade, but for most of my adult life I have lived elsewhere – 3 years in Syracuse, 6 years in Washington, DC, 5 years in Chicago, and the rest on Long Island.

            There is the eminent domain aspect (O’Malley wanted the state to take and give it to him for his stadium). While I am no Ron Paul supporter, I do get up in arms over abuses of the power (and taking property to give to a private organization is in my mind an abuse). Still, eminent domain is not exactly something that causes you to choose a sports team.

            So what was it then?

            My parents were Brooklyn born and they lamented the Dodgers leaving until the day they died. My father once told me the best Christmas present I ever gave him was a laminated and mounted front page of the Daily News the day the Dodgers won (the famous “Who’s a Bum”). The loyalty the Dodgers generated is unmatched in American professional sports (the closest you can probably get is soccer in places like Brazil, Argentina, Italy or Spain, where people literally bleed for their local clubs).

            And it went both ways -- the players seemed to be a real part of the fabric of Brooklyn.

            Could Jackie Robinson have happened anywhere else?

            The famous praying for Gil Hodges?

            My mother, who knew hardly anything about sports, 40 years later whining about Bobby Thompson?

            People in my family crying when Roy Campanella died?

            In an era before sports became the license to print money that it is today, the Dodgers were a money generating machine. They were popular beyond belief. They were not the Expos, getting 8,000 a game when the league average was 25,000 or the second team in a declining city like the Braves, Browns or A’s. But they moved anyway.

            So I guess I get incensed with the Dodgers moving out is that was robbed and something that should have been mine. The Dodgers should have been my team. And I should have been able to join in to listening to the stories. The fact they were extremely profitable. The fact that the tore the heart out of Brooklyn.

            So “Let’s Go Mets” but I will still wonder what I lost.
            The Brooklyn Dodgers were more than a baseball team. They represented what was good, and even best about America. It is a mistake to think that Brooklyn Dodger fans are only incensed at losing their local heroes. Something very special died when the "Boys of Summer" headed for California. In a very real sense, not only has Brooklyn never been the same since this happened--but neither has the entire nation as a whole. Baseball is more a "culture," than it is a "game"--and nowhere was this more true than in Brooklyn.

            Comment


            • #7
              I still think an effort is needed to put a major league franchise in Brooklyn, for MLB's sake as well as the sake of Brooklyn. Hopefully the community would want it bad enough to get it done if given the opportunity.

              What I would really like to see is four 8-team leagues geographically aligned using the original concept: 22 games vs. each team in your league with the best record winning the pennant. Then your World Series would be two best of seven series.

              To me, that would help create the environment that existed during the golden years of baseball, when teams were a more integral part of the community. This is the essence of what I read when people say leaving Brooklyn took something away that hasn't been replaced.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by CaliforniaCajun View Post
                I still think an effort is needed to put a major league franchise in Brooklyn, for MLB's sake as well as the sake of Brooklyn. Hopefully the community would want it bad enough to get it done if given the opportunity.

                What I would really like to see is four 8-team leagues geographically aligned using the original concept: 22 games vs. each team in your league with the best record winning the pennant. Then your World Series would be two best of seven series.

                To me, that would help create the environment that existed during the golden years of baseball, when teams were a more integral part of the community. This is the essence of what I read when people say leaving Brooklyn took something away that hasn't been replaced.
                Good idea but it won't fly...people are too used to wanting to see all the teams.

                The NHL tried something like that for the three seasons before this one. They increased the number of games within the division to 8, you then played 4 games against other teams in the same conference and play against one division on the road and one division at home in the other conference.

                It was a noble attempt to try to recapture the rivalries of the past. You should have heard some of the screaming from some quarters. There was a lot of crying from within western Canada how they would never get to see the Leafs and would see players such as Crosby only one every 3 years. There was also some complaints from fans they got tired of seeing the same teams so often.

                Look, also the playoffs bring in money. I'm afraid they're here to stay.

                Comment


                • #9
                  The reason the fans were so incensed, is that there was still a large baseball market in Brooklyn at the time, and in fact, still is. I don't think there will be a team in Brooklyn any time this century though. The mets have burnt those bridges.
                  MySpace Codes

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MATHA531 View Post
                    Good idea but it won't fly...people are too used to wanting to see all the teams.

                    The NHL tried something like that for the three seasons before this one. They increased the number of games within the division to 8, you then played 4 games against other teams in the same conference and play against one division on the road and one division at home in the other conference.

                    It was a noble attempt to try to recapture the rivalries of the past. You should have heard some of the screaming from some quarters. There was a lot of crying from within western Canada how they would never get to see the Leafs and would see players such as Crosby only one every 3 years. There was also some complaints from fans they got tired of seeing the same teams so often.

                    Look, also the playoffs bring in money. I'm afraid they're here to stay.
                    Good ideas take a long time to take root.

                    When I was a kid (famous words I'm sure), my team faced clubs at various stages of the season. In other words, everybody saw each other when they were hot, when they were cold, when key players were injured, and when key players were healthy.

                    I think you lose your identity as a league if you play certain teams only six times a year in home and home series one week apart.

                    If you want to make money in the playoffs, pit teams against one another who haven't played during the regular season. There were no doubts who the best teams in each league were because they demonstrated that over either 154 or 162-game seasons.

                    I'm an Angel fan. I'll forego six games against the Yankees and prove my mettle with 22 games each with the Mariners, Giants, A's, Dodgers, Padres, Diamondbacks, and Rockies. If I come out on top after 154 games, I'll be ready for the playoffs and there will be that extra element of excitement because I have never faced my postseason opponents before.

                    I guess I go back to 1968 as a treasured memory. Denny McLain won 31 games for Detroit and Bob Gibson had a 1.12 ERA for the Cardinals. That may be my favorite World Series (except the year my team won) because of the epic battle between the irresistable object vs. the immovable force. And what happened? Gibson proved to be better than McLain, but Mickey Lolich proved to be the World Series hero and the Tigers won.

                    The NFL has surpassed MLB (in my opinion but not in my heart) as the #1 sport because it was willing to merge with the AFL and create new rivalries and the Super Bowl is at a status that the World Series (I don't think) can't ever match again.

                    The sport that's willing to re-define itself and sell itself will emerge supreme.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by stejay View Post
                      The reason the fans were so incensed, is that there was still a large baseball market in Brooklyn at the time, and in fact, still is. I don't think there will be a team in Brooklyn any time this century though. The mets have burnt those bridges.
                      Imagine if they did put a team in Brooklyn--they would have TWO Ebbets Field-looking stadiums within 5 miles of each other. Talk about bizarre.
                      I see great things in baseball. It's our game - the American game.
                      - Walt Whitman

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by jnakamura View Post
                        Imagine if they did put a team in Brooklyn--they would have TWO Ebbets Field-looking stadiums within 5 miles of each other. Talk about bizarre.

                        It's a tribute to the old Dodgers because Fred Wilpon was a Brooklyn fan.

                        What I'd like to have seen is for the Pacific Coast League to be elevated to major league status, because that way I'd still have my Angels and you'd have your Dodgers and the 154-game season would remain intact with a World Series arrangement between the three leagues.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Yes of course that would have solved the problem completely, however I see some drawbacks...

                          1. How do you declare a championship with 3 major leagues...do you go for a Wild Card? Do you do something similar to the NFL namely the 3 major league champions plus the next best 3 records...give the top 2 a bye, playoff the remaining 4 teams best of 7, then another round and finally the World Series..of course that might lead to two teams in the same league being in the World Series...

                          2. Also Do you have eight teams to make the PCL a major league...let's see LA, Hollywood, San Diego, San Francisco, Oakland, Seattle but who's your eighth team..I suppose either Sacremento or Portland????

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by jnakamura View Post
                            Imagine if they did put a team in Brooklyn--they would have TWO Ebbets Field-looking stadiums within 5 miles of each other. Talk about bizarre.
                            It wouldnt happen now. 10-20 years ago, I would have said it was possible, if not unlikely. Now it's impossible. That would be quite funny though...
                            MySpace Codes

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                            • #15
                              Among other things, this article in today's NY Times quotes letters to Mayor Robert Wagner from Brooklynites about the move:

                              http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/16/sp...tml?ref=sports

                              It drives at what dodger dynamo and penncentralpete were talking about.

                              Comment

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