Celebrate the past, live in the present.

[Shotgun Shuba]

I love the dedication and obvious affection shown to our beloved Dodgers, but I am a little confused. It was an awful thing for the Dodgers to move but it is such a complex issue that you cannot just turn your back on the Dodger Blue. O'Malley was a greedy opportunist, but Robert Moses is the villain. One post even suggested the "Brooklyn Curse" should have been called for in 1963. What kind of person would root for the Yankees over the Dodgers of any city? I can't fault the Dodgers for leaving a declining urban area and moving toward an uncertain future. O'Malley made it work and the Dodgers thrived. I am positive most of the posters on this site don't live in Brooklyn now, if ever. Did you betray Brooklyn by leaving? No, you wanted to make a life for yourselves and the true Dodger fan would never abandon them just because of their ownership. With today's technology you could follow the Dodgers even more closely than 50 years ago. Don't live in the past, your Dodgers deserve better than that. I wish Ebbets field still stood but that is over forever, enjoy what you can still see, touch and hear. Dodgers Forever!

[Mike Nealon]

excellent point, Peter Goldenbock's Bum's book talks about the "mass exodus" of the Brooklynites out of Brooklyn. The same people who rooted for Robinson to be treated equally did so, just as long as it wasn't in their back yard. However, I disagree with the Robert Moses remark, I've said this before and I'll say it again, blaming Moses is like blaming your parents for not letting you take cookies out of the cookie jar. Do they have the power to do so? yes, do they have to? no. Moses was under no obligation to kiss O'Malley's fanny and in turn didn't. After all Moses told O'Malley, if you want the land that bad why don't you go and buy it yourself. Of course O'Malley didn't want this, he wanted Moses to look like the bad guy running in there and kicking everyone out, then turning around and selling the land to O'Malley at a wholesale discount price, something O'Malley would never have gotten on the open market. Capitalism works both ways, not just O'Malley's way!!!

[Shotgun Shuba]

You are right, there is plenty of blame to go around. The story of the Dodgers and Giants leaving is one involving a city, country and society that were changing. No city could support three ball teams. The Dodgers could not move to Nassau or Queens and still be the Brooklyn Dodgers and the temptation was just too great. As for the Giants, as Stoneham said " I feel bad for the kids, but I haven't seen many of their parents lately." To have a team you have to support them. Both teams had to go for it to work and so it happened. Besides, think of the miracle Mets never occuring, everything works out. I lived on Long Island for 30 years, but the time came to leave. Thats life.

[donzblock]

The time had not come to leave, at least not for the Brooklyn Dodgers. They simply needed a new ballpark. We have listened for a long time to the argument that suggests that Brooklyn Dodger fans are hypocrites for criticizing the move out of Brooklyn when they themselves moved out of Brooklyn. I and my fellow movers did not move out of greed. I did not move to Pennsylvania because the state gave me a sweetheart deal on real estate and built me a great new house. The differences between my move and the Dodgers' move are significant and have already been spelled out. Think about these differences and you will come up with so many that you ought to see how absurd it is to equate the two.

The curse should have been invoked in 1963, and the kind of person who would have rooted for the Yankees in 1963 is not a person who was rooting against the real Dodgers. The real Dodgers were killed at the end of 1957, and so far there has been no resurrection. Your shotgun, Mr. Shuba, is firing blanks.

[tonypug]

Many of us moved to Long Island and still came to Brooklyn for games. We went to as many games when we lived on Long Island as we did when we lived in Brooklyn and that was quite a few.

[EbtsFldGuy]

Celebrate the past, live in the present

In their posts, Shotgun Shuba makes sense, and Mike Nealon adds reality.

As we have discussed on other threads at length, Ebbets Field and its environs were on a steady path downward as the 1957 season arrived. The familiar problems, perceived or real (i.e. lack of mass transit from Long Island, limited parking, concern about safety, and the aging park, among others) were causing people to stay away. While Tony Pug and some other ex Brooklynites may have come back to Crown Heights from Long Island to see a game, not enough of them did - droves of others declined to make the trip back, for the above reasons and perhaps others.

And even within the City, it was chancy to go to EF sometimes. I remember making the trip as a young boy with my Dad, who was physically handicapped, and having to park several blocks away from EF on streets that were seemingly not safe was a real disincentive for even Dodger loyalists like us. That feeling was surely not isolated.

Had the Dodgers stayed then and no changes been made, attendance would likely have continued to drop steadily. Who knows where that would have taken the team - especially with the financially restless owner that OM was? Maybe their trip to LA -or Arizona - or somewhere else was just a matter of time. Maybe not.

Sure, we all wish they were still at Ebbets Field. But that's as much a fantasy as the "Curse of Brooklyn" is folly.

The borough was changing rapidly then, and the Dodgers faced a challenge that confronted other teams years later (e. g. the Tigers, the Phillies, and the Yankees). The reality is that although NYC would later renovate Yankee Stadium twice at great cost, in the late 1950s it was not about to do that for the Dodgers in the way that OM wanted.

I believe, though, that with a stronger Mayor, and with an earlier-acting Governor, compromise could have been reached and the Dodgers saved for NYC, though perhaps not for Brooklyn.

Perhaps even the Giants could have been settled in NJ, or even co-located with the Dodgers in Queens (in what would have been the ULTIMATE co -existence compromise!). There was no place for them in Manhattan, however.

All of this would make a fine case study for an MBA program somewhere.

Regrettably, though, now we have only our memories of that wonderful time in our youth when the Dodgers gave Brooklyn and Dodger fans a kind of warm spirit that was unique, and enriched all of our lives. Thankfully, this board and our poster colleagues keep that spirit alive!

[Shotgun Shuba]

Well thought out and well said. I have promised not to talk about the move any more. I think it was inevitable that one of the NL New York teams would have to move, others disagree. That era sure was a bright spot in baseball history. I must add, however,(and I know people will scream at me) if the Dodgers or Giants decided to come back, I think there are too few people left who would even care. Most people in NY under 55 have grown up not giving a hoot about the Dodgers or Giants.

[tonypug]

I love the dedication and obvious affection shown to our beloved Dodgers, but I am a little confused. It was an awful thing for the Dodgers to move but it is such a complex issue that you cannot just turn your back on the Dodger Blue. O'Malley was a greedy opportunist, but Robert Moses is the villain. One post even suggested the "Brooklyn Curse" should have been called for in 1963. What kind of person would root for the Yankees over the Dodgers of any city? I can't fault the Dodgers for leaving a declining urban area and moving toward an uncertain future. O'Malley made it work and the Dodgers thrived. I am positive most of the posters on this site don't live in Brooklyn now, if ever. Did you betray Brooklyn by leaving? No, you wanted to make a life for yourselves and the true Dodger fan would never abandon them just because of their ownership. With today's technology you could follow the Dodgers even more closely than 50 years ago. Don't live in the past, your Dodgers deserve better than that. I wish Ebbets field still stood but that is over forever, enjoy what you can still see, touch and hear. Dodgers Forever!

I do celebrate the past and live in the present. By choice I prefer to ignore the LA team, and root elsewhere. No one here says you can't root for the LA team, just don't come here and say we should.

[Shotgun Shuba]

I will not, trust me. Since I made that post I have decided it was wrong for me to talk about L.A., since that was never the point of this forum. I only speak Brooklynese here.

[tonypug]

I will not, trust me. Since I made that post I have decided it was wrong for me to talk about L.A., since that was never the point of this forum. I only speak Brooklynese here.

Then I hold my hand out in peace.

[donzblock]

I would like to believe that that there is room enough for three MLB baseball teams in NYC. Put the Dodgers in Coney Island; put the Giants in Manhattan somewhere on the Hudson River waterfront; keep the Yankees in the Bronx. Move the Mets--anywhere. Or keep the Mets in Queens and have four MLB teams in the city. What the hell! Such a plan might persuade MLB to euthanize the Philadelphia Phillies so that the four NYC teams could have a convenient place for their minor league teams. Or move the Phillies to Staten Island and have 5 MLB teams in NYC. We now have a new and flexible master plan.

[Shotgun Shuba]

I would like to believe that that there is room enough for three MLB baseball teams in NYC. Put the Dodgers in Coney Island; put the Giants in Manhattan somewhere on the Hudson River waterfront; keep the Yankees in the Bronx. Move the Mets--anywhere. Or keep the Mets in Queens and have four MLB teams in the city. What the hell! Such a plan might persuade MLB to euthanize the Philadelphia Phillies so that the four NYC teams could have a convenient place for their minor league teams. Or move the Phillies to Staten Island and have 5 MLB teams in NYC. We now have a new and flexible master plan.

What did Staten Island do to deserve that?

[donzblock]

What did Staten Island do to deserve that?

Philadelphia today does not deserve the Phillies. Philadelphians have suffered enough. However, there is a huge landfill in Staten Island that would be just perfect for the Phillies. Also, the Phillies would be able to absorb and conteract the awful smells that waft over from Elizabeth, New Jersey.

[ColtscorrAL]

I love the Brooklyn Dodgers and I love the LA Dodgers. Guess I love the Dodgers. :atthepc

[donzblock]

A friend of mine has similar tastes. He loves classical music and mud wrestling.