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Tim Raines for Cooperstown (wearing an Expos hat of course)

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  • bambambaseball
    replied
    Shortchanged again!

    Leave a comment:


  • bambambaseball
    replied
    Im hoping he gets in. He is overdue and shouldnt be struggling like this.

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  • Chicoutimi CP
    replied
    Nice article sent to me by the Montreal chapter of the SABR

    Raines hoping for big jump in HOF vote
    Game-changing leadoff man believes he earned enshrinement

    By Bill Ladson / MLB.com

    Outfielder Tim Raines is one of the best leadoff hitters of all time. Most of his damage at the top of the lineup was done as a member of the Expos and White Sox. From 1982-92, he scored 90 or more runs eight times, led the league in stolen bases four times, was an All-Star seven times and hit .290 or better six times.

    Overall, the switch-hitting Raines played 23 years. He ranks fifth all-time in stolen bases and ended up with 2,605 hits and 1,571 runs scored. Even when his days as an everyday player were over, Raines proved to be a valuable reserve, helping the Yankees win World Series titles in 1996 and '98.

    Will Raines' success on the field be enough to put him in the Baseball Hall of Fame? It wasn't the case in his first year of eligibility. He received 132 points, named on only 24.3 percent of the ballot in 2008.

    A candidate must get 75 percent of the vote to gain election, with former Red Sox slugger Jim Rice (72.2 percent), former Expos and Cubs outfielder Andre Dawson (65.9 percent) and former Twins ace Bert Blyleven (61.9 precent) standing as the top three returning vote-getters.

    Rickey Henderson, whose career spanned 25 years and nine teams, headlines the newcomers to the 2009 Hall of Fame ballot. Henderson, who has never announced his retirement, last played for the Dodgers in 2003. The 1990 American League MVP is the all-time leader in runs scored (2,295) and stolen bases (1,406). He is second all-time in walks (2,190).

    MLB.com will have live coverage of the balloting results on Monday, Jan. 12.

    In an interview with ESPN.com last year, Raines stated his case of why he should be a Hall of Famer.

    "I would probably say that when it comes to players that made an impact on a team and a league for an extended period of time, if that's what you're looking for, that's what I was," he said. "It's not so much getting 3,000 hits, 500 home runs, 300 wins. It's also about longevity, the era that you're playing in, being one player that I think many teams feared for a long period of time. I think all of that gives me a chance."

    Dawson, who played with Raines for eight years in Montreal, believes Raines belongs in Cooperstown.

    "You are talking about a player who played 20-something years. He was consistent and steady. He was a catalyst. For what his requirements were, he did it real well," Dawson said. "He was Rickey Henderson minus all the leadoff home runs. He was probably better defensively -- more so with a strong throwing arm."

    Among Raines' many dominant seasons during the '80s, the 1987 campaign stands out, and he had a lot to prove that year. After winning the National League batting title the previous season, Raines became a free agent, but he didn't have a true chance to test the market because he was affected by what was ultimately deemed by an arbitrator to be collusion by the owners.

    The leadoff hitter couldn't return to the Expos until May 1, but he made up for lost time. He played his first game of the season the next day against the Mets and went 4-for-5, hit a 10th-inning homer off left-hander Jesse Orosco.

    "He had no Spring Training, and we were playing in New York," said Jim Fanning, who was a general manager, manager and broadcaster during his 15-plus years with the Expos. "It's his first game back. He hits a home run right-handed. He was an absolute star of that game. I remember [broadcaster] Dave Van Horne and I were saying, 'What is this Spring Training business all about anyway? Everybody can get in condition on their own. Who needs it?'"

    Raines ended up leading the National League in runs scored and finished third with a .330 batting average in '87.

    Raines almost didn't become the player whom fans grew to know. After he was drafted by the Expos in the fifth round of the 1977 First-Year Player Draft, Fanning, then the GM, envisioned Raines to be the next Joe Morgan. Raines was drafted as a second baseman and the team believed, like Morgan, that he would become a player who displayed a lot of power.

    But the predictions about Raines being another Morgan proved premature. Raines had a tough time playing defense on the infield. He didn't have the range to play second base and had trouble turning the double play. Switching to left field in 1981 was the best thing that ever happened to Raines.

    "It was not a difficult switch to put him in the outfield. In fact, it was easy," Fanning said. "I'm not surprised by the career he had. He had a knack on how to play this game. He was a delight to watch. It didn't make a difference who the pitcher was."

    Bill Ladson is a reporter for MLB.com This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.

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  • Captain Cold Nose
    replied
    [QUOTE=aqib;1250388]
    Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
    It's not a game for them, it's their occupation. They have a skill set like any other employable person.

    How are they overpaid? It's a billion-dollar industry and the players are the product.

    QUOTE]

    Actually the game is the product, the players are the materials.
    Well, since the game can't be paid those billions . . .

    You ever see Little Big Man?

    Leave a comment:


  • aqib
    replied
    [QUOTE=Captain Cold Nose;1250270]It's not a game for them, it's their occupation. They have a skill set like any other employable person.

    How are they overpaid? It's a billion-dollar industry and the players are the product.

    QUOTE]

    Actually the game is the product, the players are the materials.

    Leave a comment:


  • Captain Cold Nose
    replied
    Originally posted by Ralph Zig Tyko
    Yes, quite a bit to go through, indeed. All those parties with "slump busters," all that playing a game for a living, all that being over paid, all that adulation.
    It's not a game for them, it's their occupation. They have a skill set like any other employable person.

    How are they overpaid? It's a billion-dollar industry and the players are the product.

    How does having a skill set that puts one in the limelight make an addiction any easier? How trite, flippant and callous of you.

    Leave a comment:


  • DauntlessDave
    replied
    It's a mystery to me why Tim Raines is not an automatic lock for the HOF.

    His numbers are very favorable when compared with other HOF left fielders. Quite similar to Lou Brock. Most HOF left fielders (post dead-ball era) are sluggers. And voters have always been in love with sluggers. Naturally-made ones at least.

    IMO, he seems to have had three things against him.

    1. Montreal (They had those great teams in the early '80s, but it was never a baseball media mecca. Imagine if he had played for the Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, or Dodgers during the '80s. He would get in on the first ballot.)

    2. Longevity (If he had burned out earlier, like say '95, he'd be in. It's too bad that he's guilty for continuing to play until 42. Usually a guy is commended for that. It's not like his numbers were bad at the end. They shouldn't diminish 15 previous years of elite play.)

    3. Cocaine (Hey, it was the '80s! Shouldn't he get a free pass on that one? But seriously, actors, politicians, musicians and athletes have had their reputations restored over much worse. The hypocrisy and moral high ground of the old school baseball elite (historians/writers) has always been disgusting. If character is such an important stipulation for induction, take another look at the guys who are already in. If drugs were his only flaw, then Raines is better than a lot of them. )

    Leave a comment:


  • Captain Cold Nose
    replied
    Originally posted by VIBaseball View Post
    How tarnished do you all think Raines is from drug involvement? I think that's something of a factor.
    It has to have hurt him. It has Dave Parker, and possibly Keith Hernandez. Paul Molitor had no problems, but he did reach some big milestones and was regarded as an exemplary citizen after it all blew over. Raines's admission about sliding head first to protect the vials in his back pocket is one of the most telling statements of the era, if not the most.

    I don't think it's something one should take a moral high ground, though. It's very easy to condemn, especially when one is completely outside of what happened. Three of my favorites at the time, Raines, Parker and Willie Wilson were all implicated in the scandal. I didn't stop rooting for them, although I did feel sorry for them, it's quite a bit to go through.

    Leave a comment:


  • VIBaseball
    replied
    How tarnished do you all think Raines is from drug involvement? I think that's something of a factor.

    Leave a comment:


  • Captain Cold Nose
    replied
    Originally posted by wilkerson_rulz-06 View Post
    I never knew Carter was a jerk to be honest, and that's surprising.

    That said.

    If Dawson doesn't get in, then there's no way Timmy should.
    Dawson will get in. His vote total is way too high with a lot of time left on the ballot for him to miss out.

    Raines is the type of player who should build strong momentum. Why he got such a low percentage his first time out I don't understand (well, I kind of do. He spent the last few years of his career as a part-time journeyman and nowhere near the player he was) but I feel he has a decent shot, especially if the mid-90's on up continues to get a lot of scrutiny. Is that fair for Raines? No, he deserves better than that.

    Leave a comment:


  • wilkerson_rulz-06
    replied
    I never knew Carter was a jerk to be honest, and that's surprising.

    That said.

    If Dawson doesn't get in, then there's no way Timmy should.

    Leave a comment:


  • aqib
    replied
    In the NFL when a guy gets the team that he played for usually has a ceremony where they give him his Hall of Fame ring. Sometimes when guys played for teams that have since been moved, they have the ceremony at their original home. Does baseball have something similar?

    Leave a comment:


  • Steve Jeltz
    replied
    Originally posted by six4three View Post
    Well, consider the source.

    Cary Carter is a jerk.
    Gary Carter was not a popular presence in the Expos' clubhouse. His teammates nicknamed him "Teeth" because he was always putting on that phony smile whenever there was a camera around.

    As for the HOF, Raines will only make it on a veterans ballot years from now. If Dawson is elected, he should go in as an Expo. His best seasons were in Montreal.

    Leave a comment:


  • six4three
    replied
    Well, consider the source.

    Cary Carter is a jerk.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Funktopuss
    replied
    Unfortunately, the way I see it, ' The Rock' will be the Expos last chance for a Montreal player to be inducted to the HOF. As much as it breaks my heart, Andre Dawson will probably go in as a Cub and Vlad is on the fence in terms of him going in as an Angel or an Expo (playing up here seemingly doesn't garner much recognition in the eyes of the HOF I guess). Based on pure stats alone 'the Rock' is more than worthy of Cooperstown...

    I miss the Expos :candle:

    BTW, what really was a slap in the face for me was seeing an interview with Gary Carter. He thought the camera was off and proceeded to explain how he wanted to wear a Mets cap in the HOF as he considered Montreal to be a 'dead' team and didn't want to be associated with said 'dead' team. Do you think he realizes he's ripping out our hearts when he says these things????

    Leave a comment:

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