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  • #16
    Originally posted by tonypug
    One more point of why the Mets went to Queens. After the Dodgers and Giants moved, their was a fight over the NewYork City territory, between the National and American Leagues. Commissioner Ford Frick declared all of New York City Yankees territory with the exception of Brooklyn and Queens.
    Gives resonance to "I'll take Manhattan, the Bronx and Staten Island."

    I wonder if this had a sunset provision. If Fred Wilpon had gotten West Side fever (he said he considered it), could anything Ford Frick declared provisionally still be enforced decades later? Not that the Mets are leaving Queens, but Steinbrenner having some sort of veto power in any of the five boroughs is a scary thought. I'm guessing this was hammered out somewhere along the way.

    In "Crash of the Titans," a riveting account of the proto-Jets in their PG years, it is noted that "despite moving to California, the [SF] Giants had continued to pay rent, and thus had the right of occupancy." Thus Harry Wismer, owner of the new AFL team, sublet from the baseball team that was now 3,000 miles away. I was shocked when I learned that the Giants had left some sort of marker in New York after abandoning it.
    Faith and Fear in Flushing: The Blog

    Faith and Fear in Flushing: The Book

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    • #17
      crash of the titans

      Originally posted by Greg NYG-NYM
      Gives resonance to "I'll take Manhattan, the Bronx and Staten Island."

      I wonder if this had a sunset provision. If Fred Wilpon had gotten West Side fever (he said he considered it), could anything Ford Frick declared provisionally still be enforced decades later? Not that the Mets are leaving Queens, but Steinbrenner having some sort of veto power in any of the five boroughs is a scary thought. I'm guessing this was hammered out somewhere along the way.

      In "Crash of the Titans," a riveting account of the proto-Jets in their PG years, it is noted that "despite moving to California, the [SF] Giants had continued to pay rent, and thus had the right of occupancy." Thus Harry Wismer, owner of the new AFL team, sublet from the baseball team that was now 3,000 miles away. I was shocked when I learned that the Giants had left some sort of marker in New York after abandoning it.
      Yes the polo grounds was only a temp home for the mets because the city of new york had all ready taken over the property in 1960 for its housing project. they let the titans(JETS)and mets stay there until 1964. as stated before the coogan family wanted to keep the polo grounds and renovate it and also filed a law suit against the building of the housing project, but the case was not heard until around 1967 or 1968 a couple years after the polo grounds had been torn down. QUESTION this CRASH OF THE TITANS is this a book on the new york titans(JETS) covering there polo grounds years 1960-1963 if so were can you get the book and what is the ISBN number for the book thanks Donald.
      LONG LIVE THE POLO GROUNDS 1891-1964
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/POLOGROUNDS1962

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      • #18
        Originally posted by POLO GROUNDS 1957
        QUESTION this CRASH OF THE TITANS is this a book on the new york titans(JETS) covering there polo grounds years 1960-1963 if so were can you get the book and what is the ISBN number for the book thanks Donald.
        "Crash of the Titans" by Bill Ryczek was published in 2000. Its ISBN is 1-892129-27-2. I bought it at Barnes & Noble not long after it came out. It indeed covers the PG Years, specifically 1960-62 when they were still called the Titans. It touches on '63 when they were still uptown but were called the Jets. Lots of good Polo Grounds stuff.

        Amazon link:
        http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/189...lance&n=283155
        Faith and Fear in Flushing: The Blog

        Faith and Fear in Flushing: The Book

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        • #19
          Originally posted by [email protected]
          Whoops, Sorry, I misunderstood the question. I think eventually the polo grounds would have been razed no matter what. The area, lack of parking, stadium age and design (I think) all would have contributed to it's ultimate demise. I'm also not sure who actually owned the park and the land on which it stood but seem to recall that the Giants would have had to leave in any case at the end of there lease which I believe would have taken them into the early Sixties. Any similar recollections out there?
          I believe the Giants owned the park

          Originally posted by Polo Grounds 1957
          Yes i would leave the dimensions alone. that was one thing that made the polo grounds special. look at the cookie cutters that replaced the classic ballparks they all looked the same inside
          I agree, the dimensions would definately HAVE to be left the way they were. That is what made the Polo Grounds unique.
          "Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support, not illumination."
          -Vin Scully

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          • #20
            Good discussion, guys. Many good thoughts.

            Let me add two other twists to the question.

            1. Suppose that only the Dodgers moved after the 1957 season (I agree that the NL likely would not have permitted that to happen), would the Giants have attracted their fans in enough numbers to make the attendance good enough to stave off their own flight from NY?

            2. And if so, would the Polo Grounds be their home today?

            A blessed and happy 2006 to you all!

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            • #21
              giants

              Originally posted by EbtsFldGuy
              Good discussion, guys. Many good thoughts.

              Let me add two other twists to the question.

              1. Suppose that only the Dodgers moved after the 1957 season (I agree that the NL likely would not have permitted that to happen), would the Giants have attracted their fans in enough numbers to make the attendance good enough to stave off their own flight from NY?

              2. And if so, would the Polo Grounds be their home today?

              A blessed and happy 2006 to you all!
              I think that the giants would have made it if only brooklyn had moved. look at how good the giants were after they left new york. they would have had no problem filling the polo grounds.
              LONG LIVE THE POLO GROUNDS 1891-1964
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/POLOGROUNDS1962

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              • #22
                Originally posted by POLO GROUNDS 1957
                I think that the giants would have made it if only brooklyn had moved. look at how good the giants were after they left new york. they would have had no problem filling the polo grounds.
                The problem with this train of thought is Horace Stoneham was convinced he had to leave the Polo Grounds. He origonally asked for permission to move his team to Minneapolis. This was before O'Malley started his westward move talk. He was turned down, no doubt O'Malley led the opposition. He was then thinking of moving in with the Yankees at Yankee Stadium. As long as Horace owned the Giants, the Polo Grounds was not in their future, even had they stayed in New York.

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                • #23
                  horace stoneham

                  Originally posted by chiefpaddy
                  The problem with this train of thought is Horace Stoneham was convinced he had to leave the Polo Grounds. He origonally asked for permission to move his team to Minneapolis. This was before O'Malley started his westward move talk. He was turned down, no doubt O'Malley led the opposition. He was then thinking of moving in with the Yankees at Yankee Stadium. As long as Horace owned the Giants, the Polo Grounds was not in their future, even had they stayed in New York.
                  Yes horace stoneham wanted out of the polo grounds because of the drop in attendance but if the giants had stayed after a couple good seasons with great attendance with the giants teams in the 1960s he would have changed his mind. I can just see the 1962 world series between the new york giants and the new york yankees with 55,000 fans at the polo grounds. i never did like candlestick park. seals stadium looked nice in photos that i have seen. and i have heard from people who went to seals stadium that said it was a nice park.but to me the polo grounds will always be the home of the giants.
                  LONG LIVE THE POLO GROUNDS 1891-1964
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/POLOGROUNDS1962

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by POLO GROUNDS 1957
                    Yes horace stoneham wanted out of the polo grounds because of the drop in attendance but if the giants had stayed after a couple good seasons with great attendance with the giants teams in the 1960s he would have changed his mind. I can just see the 1962 world series between the new york giants and the new york yankees with 55,000 fans at the polo grounds. i never did like candlestick park. seals stadium looked nice in photos that i have seen. and i have heard from people who went to seals stadium that said it was a nice park.but to me the polo grounds will always be the home of the giants.
                    Donald you are a lover of the old classic baseball parks, as I am, and there is nothing wrong with that. The Polo Grounds was the home of the New York Giants and will always be remembered as such.Willie Mays cavorting in center field and loseing his cap as he flew around the bases will always be a fond memory for me. Even though many of these actions hurt my Brooklyn Dodgers. Unfortunatly Horace Stoneham lost his love for the ballpark. It woud have been something to see McCovey and Cepeda hit in that ballpark though.
                    Lets get Eddie Basinski elected to the Polish Sports Hall of Fame.
                    www.brooklyndodgermemories.com

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by EbtsFldGuy
                      Good discussion, guys. Many good thoughts.

                      Let me add two other twists to the question.

                      1. Suppose that only the Dodgers moved after the 1957 season (I agree that the NL likely would not have permitted that to happen), would the Giants have attracted their fans in enough numbers to make the attendance good enough to stave off their own flight from NY?

                      2. And if so, would the Polo Grounds be their home today?

                      A blessed and happy 2006 to you all!
                      An interesting "what if?" scenario. I think if Stoneham, who didn't seem to be too bright, had realized that with the Dodgers leaving, he would be the only NL franchise in NY and very well could have thrived. He would have been regarded as a hero for not taking his team across the continent. I don't expect that very many Brooklyn fans would become Giant fans, but certainly when LA came to the PG to play the Giants, the place would have been packed, some Dodger fans wanting to see their old heroes and others wanting to see them get their brains beat in, because they now had the LA on their caps. But others may have come during the season to see Mays and to see the other NL teams and the Giants were about to come up with some superb talent from their farm system, Marichal, Cepeda, McCovey, the Alous. They had the best overall record in the NL in the 60's. Plus Stoneham would have been able to get a grateful NY to build him a new stadium, at the Shea location, which brings us to part 2 of the question.

                      I think to thrive, he would have needed a new ballpark. I agree with Donald, there probably wasn't too much wrong with the PG that some housekeeping and makeovers couldn't take care of. But the perception, either real or imagined, that it wasn't a safe location was huge, plus as mentioned, a large population shift had taken place in NY after WW2, towards Long Island, making the location at Shea adventageous. And while I love the old classic ballparks, in the late 50's and 60's, the trend was for city planners and architects to get rid of a lot of classic structures and buildings and to go with more modernistic looking structures. Fans weren't exactly flocking to the classic old ballparks in the 50's and 60's. I think in the late 70's, a lot of folks woke up and realized what had been done to a lot of great and classic buildings around the country and it seems that there has been a lot of rehabbing and saving some great buidings and mercifully, a lot of eyesores that were built in the 60's are coming down.
                      It Might Be? It Could Be?? It Is!

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                      • #26
                        Here is another great shot of batting practice at the Polo Grounds, 155th Street and Eighth Avenue....




                        From an eBay listing.

                        c.

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                        • #27
                          polo grounds

                          Originally posted by DODGER DEB
                          Here is another great shot of batting practice at the Polo Grounds, 155th Street and Eighth Avenue....




                          From an eBay listing.

                          c.
                          Thanks for posting the photo is great. with the knickerbocker beer ad on the clubhouse wall out in centerfield this photo is from either 1956 or 1957.
                          LONG LIVE THE POLO GROUNDS 1891-1964
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/POLOGROUNDS1962

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by POLO GROUNDS 1957
                            Thanks for posting the photo is great. with the knickerbocker beer ad on the clubhouse wall out in centerfield this photo is from either 1956 or 1957.
                            You are quite welcome, PG1957.

                            I am not sure just when it was taken. Does anyone remember when the Chesterfield sign was replaced?

                            c.

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                            • #29
                              Great photos Deb.
                              I honestly don't think O'Malley could have gotten permission to relocate to the west coast alone. I think one of the considerations at the time was the cost of teams traveling to the coast. Making only one stop on the West Coast and still having to come to New York might have been expensive for some teams at that time and probably would have also given the schedule makers some indigestion. I don't think any of the other teams were interested in making the move leaving only O'Malley's arch rival the Giants who, had already talked about going to Minneapolis. Unfortunately for all of us, we lost both teams
                              Last edited by [email protected]; 01-02-2006, 03:28 PM.
                              RCL

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                              • #30
                                polo grounds

                                Originally posted by DODGER DEB
                                You are quite welcome, PG1957.

                                I am not sure just when it was taken. Does anyone remember when the Chesterfield sign was replaced?

                                c.
                                The last year that the polo grounds had the chesterfield ad on the clubhouse wall was 1955. so this photo is from either 1956 or 1957. i wonder how long after the giants left the polo grounds did the knickerbocker beer sign stay. i have seen photos of the PG from 1958 and the beer ad was still there.
                                LONG LIVE THE POLO GROUNDS 1891-1964
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/POLOGROUNDS1962

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