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  • #31
    Originally posted by 64Cards
    An interesting "what if?" scenario. I think if Stoneham, who didn't seem to be too bright, had realized that with the Dodgers leaving, he would be the only NL franchise in NY and very well could have thrived. He would have been regarded as a hero for not taking his team across the continent. I don't expect that very many Brooklyn fans would become Giant fans, but certainly when LA came to the PG to play the Giants, the place would have been packed, some Dodger fans wanting to see their old heroes and others wanting to see them get their brains beat in, because they now had the LA on their caps. But others may have come during the season to see Mays and to see the other NL teams and the Giants were about to come up with some superb talent from their farm system, Marichal, Cepeda, McCovey, the Alous. They had the best overall record in the NL in the 60's. Plus Stoneham would have been able to get a grateful NY to build him a new stadium, at the Shea location, which brings us to part 2 of the question.

    I think to thrive, he would have needed a new ballpark. I agree with Donald, there probably wasn't too much wrong with the PG that some housekeeping and makeovers couldn't take care of. But the perception, either real or imagined, that it wasn't a safe location was huge, plus as mentioned, a large population shift had taken place in NY after WW2, towards Long Island, making the location at Shea adventageous. And while I love the old classic ballparks, in the late 50's and 60's, the trend was for city planners and architects to get rid of a lot of classic structures and buildings and to go with more modernistic looking structures. Fans weren't exactly flocking to the classic old ballparks in the 50's and 60's. I think in the late 70's, a lot of folks woke up and realized what had been done to a lot of great and classic buildings around the country and it seems that there has been a lot of rehabbing and saving some great buidings and mercifully, a lot of eyesores that were built in the 60's are coming down.
    Stoneham was offered the Flushing Meadow site that is currently Shea Stadium. He turned it down saying Queens is Brooklyn Dodger territory and didn't feel the Giants would draw well there. There was no way O'Malley was going to let the Giants leaev New York without the Dodgers or letk the Giants remain in New York while he went elsewhere. Remember O'Malley waited for Stoneham to commit to San Francisco well before he commited publicly to LA.
    Lets get Eddie Basinski elected to the Polish Sports Hall of Fame.
    www.brooklyndodgermemories.com

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    • #32
      Originally posted by tonypug
      Stoneham was offered the Flushing Meadow site that is currently Shea Stadium. He turned it down saying Queens is Brooklyn Dodger territory and didn't feel the Giants would draw well there. There was no way O'Malley was going to let the Giants leaev New York without the Dodgers or letk the Giants remain in New York while he went elsewhere. Remember O'Malley waited for Stoneham to commit to San Francisco well before he commited publicly to LA.
      I agree.

      But I wonder what would have happened had the Giants been owned by someone with a stronger will and more financial resources than Horace Stoneham had. Say a Jerry Jones ( of the Dallas Cowboys) type.

      Might they have stayed?

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      • #33
        Originally posted by EbtsFldGuy
        I agree.

        But I wonder what would have happened had the Giants been owned by someone with a stronger will and more financial resources than Horace Stoneham had. Say a Jerry Jones ( of the Dallas Cowboys) type.

        Might they have stayed?
        I'm not up on the exact timetable dealing with the Giant and Dodger moves, although O'malley seemed to pretty much run the NL and do whatever he wanted. If he was comitted to go to LA, he would have done it, if he was assured of making a fortune. And while he could keep Stoneham from going to Minnesota, there's no way he could prevent him from staying in NY, had he wanted to.

        But yeah, if he had been more resourceful, as you mentioned, and more farsighted, he could have moved to a Queens location and done very well, with the Dodgers gone.
        It Might Be? It Could Be?? It Is!

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        • #34
          Originally posted by 64Cards
          I'm not up on the exact timetable dealing with the Giant and Dodger moves, although O'malley seemed to pretty much run the NL and do whatever he wanted. If he was comitted to go to LA, he would have done it, if he was assured of making a fortune. And while he could keep Stoneham from going to Minnesota, there's no way he could prevent him from staying in NY, had he wanted to.

          But yeah, if he had been more resourceful, as you mentioned, and more farsighted, he could have moved to a Queens location and done very well, with the Dodgers gone.
          From the very beginning, O'Malley envisioned both teams moving to the west coast. In my opinion had the Giants stayed in New York, the Dodgers would have also stayed. Remember O'Malley kept all his options open. He even re-newed the lease on Ebbets Field through 1960, even though he was quite certain he would be in LA. Stoneham made it very clear he wanted out of the Polo Grounds. When he asked for permission to move, O'Malley knew he could persuade Horace to move west with him. O'Malley spent much time and effort to get Mayor Cristopher of San Francisco and Stoneham together. This was all part of O'Malley's master plan. I don't think he ever had any intention of moving to the wast coast by himself.Stoneham must have thought O'Malley was a great friend, since O'Malley did most of the work and made most of the arrangements.
          Lets get Eddie Basinski elected to the Polish Sports Hall of Fame.
          www.brooklyndodgermemories.com

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          • #35
            Originally posted by tonypug
            Stoneham was offered the Flushing Meadow site that is currently Shea Stadium. He turned it down saying Queens is Brooklyn Dodger territory and didn't feel the Giants would draw well there.
            What a charming, antiquated notion on Stoneham's part. If there were any visionaries on hand back then (besides the kind who recognized there was a boatload of money to be made in Los Angeles if you could yourself some free land), they would've understood that the Metropolitan Area was becoming one enormous neighborhood linked by television. While there are surely remnants of what is considered one team's "territory" within a market, all the games of all the teams in the Metropolitan Area are readily available for mass consumption (cable systems willing where the 2006 Mets are concerned). The Mets did not become identified as a Queens team per se. Both New York football teams receive their Sunday visitors in New Jersey and it doesn't keep folks on Long Island from tuning in to their festivities. The Bronx Bombers have their followers in Brooklyn, no matter how heretical that sounds.

            Ideally, the Giants and Dodgers would've found a way to stick around and maintained a semblance what we remember and romanticize about them and their ballparks. More likely, if they had, they would have been swept up in the push to modernity that was so prevalent in the late '50s and early '60s and set up camp in buildings that looked nothing like the Polo Grounds or Ebbets Field. Time marched on and trampled everything that got in its way.
            Faith and Fear in Flushing: The Blog

            Faith and Fear in Flushing: The Book

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            • #36
              I heard that during the 1957 season,Stoneham did not want to bring up Cepeda and Jim Davenport and Willie Mccovey (even though he was 2 yrs away) to keep attendance down and make his move to S.F. legit. Does anybody have any knowledge of this.

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              • #37
                stoneham

                Originally posted by jints15
                I heard that during the 1957 season,Stoneham did not want to bring up Cepeda and Jim Davenport and Willie Mccovey (even though he was 2 yrs away) to keep attendance down and make his move to S.F. legit. Does anybody have any knowledge of this.
                I never heard about this but it would not suprise me if that happened.
                LONG LIVE THE POLO GROUNDS 1891-1964
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/POLOGROUNDS1962

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                • #38
                  While I bemoan the loss of both the Dodgers, and Giants the simple fact of the matter is location.
                  Since this is the NYG page I will address the problems with the Polo Grounds. While the stadium was beautiful it's location flat out stinks. Having worked in that area of Manhattan the neighborhood isn't exactly the type of place you want to travel to for a ballgame. There is no parking in the immediate area. While it is always common to assume that New Yorkers travel by subway this is the exception not the norm for fans to travel to ballgames in NYC. Yankee stadium has been hurt by this problem, and the new stadium will provide for more parking than exists today, which is still more than existed at the Polo Grounds. Shea Stadium has tons of parking and the lots usually fill up. Not many choose to take mass transit to either stadium. Large numbers of the fans of either team travel from Connecticut, New Jersey and Long Island. Without ample parking you are alienating a large fan base. In addition the island of Manhattan is increasingly being overrun by out of towners. A recent article by New York Magazine estimated that roughly half of all of those people currently residing in Manhattan were born elsewhere. These people by and large would travel by subway, and while a Giants game at Coogans Bluff would be a good night out, their alligences would lie elsewhere, hardly the type of fanbase needed to generate consistent revenue. In addition the revenue collected through parking is a great incentive for any venue to have. This was the argument Steinbrenner always makes when making overtures to relocate, bad location, not enough parking. The exact reason why Bloomberg's folly of a West Side Stadium for the Jets failed, too much congestion in Manhattan for a stadium ever to survive on the island. Driving in the city everyday I can attest to the traffic nightmare a stadium would create.
                  unknown brooklyn cabbie " how are the brooks doin"
                  unknown fan "good they got three men on base"
                  unknown brooklyn cabbie "which one?"

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by theAmazingMet
                    While I bemoan the loss of both the Dodgers, and Giants the simple fact of the matter is location.
                    Since this is the NYG page I will address the problems with the Polo Grounds. While the stadium was beautiful it's location flat out stinks. Having worked in that area of Manhattan the neighborhood isn't exactly the type of place you want to travel to for a ballgame. There is no parking in the immediate area. While it is always common to assume that New Yorkers travel by subway this is the exception not the norm for fans to travel to ballgames in NYC. Yankee stadium has been hurt by this problem, and the new stadium will provide for more parking than exists today, which is still more than existed at the Polo Grounds. Shea Stadium has tons of parking and the lots usually fill up. Not many choose to take mass transit to either stadium. Large numbers of the fans of either team travel from Connecticut, New Jersey and Long Island. Without ample parking you are alienating a large fan base. In addition the island of Manhattan is increasingly being overrun by out of towners. A recent article by New York Magazine estimated that roughly half of all of those people currently residing in Manhattan were born elsewhere. These people by and large would travel by subway, and while a Giants game at Coogans Bluff would be a good night out, their alligences would lie elsewhere, hardly the type of fanbase needed to generate consistent revenue. In addition the revenue collected through parking is a great incentive for any venue to have. This was the argument Steinbrenner always makes when making overtures to relocate, bad location, not enough parking. The exact reason why Bloomberg's folly of a West Side Stadium for the Jets failed, too much congestion in Manhattan for a stadium ever to survive on the island. Driving in the city everyday I can attest to the traffic nightmare a stadium would create.
                    I still say that if the yankees still can play across the river at yankee stadium the mets or giants still could be playing today at the polo grounds instead of that dump called shea stadium.you can complain all you want to about the parking around the stadium but it could work there in new york with the subway system.
                    LONG LIVE THE POLO GROUNDS 1891-1964
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/POLOGROUNDS1962

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by POLO GROUNDS 1957
                      I still say that if the yankees still can play across the river at yankee stadium the mets or giants still could be playing today at the polo grounds instead of that dump called shea stadium.you can complain all you want to about the parking around the stadium but it could work there in new york with the subway system.
                      Read my above thread, don't assume everyone in NY takes the subway. There are no subways connecting LI, Conn, or Jersey (unless you count the path) to Manhattan. These fans would have to take either Metro North, LIRR, or Jersey Transit to either Grand Central, or Penn Station, then switch to the subway. This type of travel would take 1-2 hours depending on where you live. In addition many people who live in the outer boroughs, especially Staten Island, and Eastern Queens don't have subway access. As a matter of fact those people living on the east side of Manhattan don't have subway access either. People normally dont want to spend hours traveling to games.
                      Here is a good case in point. It could take a Mets fan living in Queens over an hour to get to Shea by subway. If they lived in say Belle Harbor they would have to take a shuttle train to Broad Channel (10 min.) From Broad Channel they would take the A train to Broadway-Junction in Brooklyn and transfer to the J train (30 min.) From Broadway Junction take the J to Jamaica (15-20 min.) From there take the F train to Roosevelt Ave. (25-30 min) Take the 7 train from Roosevelt Ave to Willets point (15 min) That makes a conservative estimate taking local trains in the same borough via subway to a total of 1:45 min. Not everyone who lives in NY takes the subway, especially those who live outside Manhattan. NYC is not just the island but 4 other boroughs where more people drive. You need ample parking to survive in todays world. That is why just as much consideration goes into parking lots, that goes into the actual construction of a new stadium.
                      unknown brooklyn cabbie " how are the brooks doin"
                      unknown fan "good they got three men on base"
                      unknown brooklyn cabbie "which one?"

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                      • #41
                        Interesting Thread

                        I'm new here..... but am a bit of a Polo Ground nut. (Thoroughly dissapointed that when I took the subway from Grand Central to Yankee Stadium a year ago... I either could not see, or forgot to look, for the Polo Ground site....)

                        The dimensions of the Polo Grounds should absolutely been a part of the park for every baseball game ever played there, whether or not it was in 1950, or 2000..... not that it could have lasted that long.


                        What were the Dodgers-Mets, and Giants-Mets games like once the Mets were formed, and those two teams came back to NY? Attendance? Crowd? Hatred or joy? Can't imagine much joy... or did the Giants Fans even go see the game? How could you not?????? Giants Mets at the Polo Grouds!!! Did the fans from Brooklyn make the trip to the PG? or to Shea once it was built?

                        Bryan in Indy
                        "Herman Franks to Sal Yvars to Bobby Thomson. Ralph Branca to Bobby Thomson to Helen Rita... cue Russ Hodges."

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by StanTheMan
                          I'm new here..... but am a bit of a Polo Ground nut. (Thoroughly dissapointed that when I took the subway from Grand Central to Yankee Stadium a year ago... I either could not see, or forgot to look, for the Polo Ground site....)

                          The dimensions of the Polo Grounds should absolutely been a part of the park for every baseball game ever played there, whether or not it was in 1950, or 2000..... not that it could have lasted that long.


                          What were the Dodgers-Mets, and Giants-Mets games like once the Mets were formed, and those two teams came back to NY? Attendance? Crowd? Hatred or joy? Can't imagine much joy... or did the Giants Fans even go see the game? How could you not?????? Giants Mets at the Polo Grouds!!! Did the fans from Brooklyn make the trip to the PG? or to Shea once it was built?

                          Bryan in Indy
                          Believe it or not there are still fans of the Dodgers, and Giants that go to Shea to watch their transplanted team play the Mets. Their fans are not as prevelant as in years past but they still show up, and many passed on the love of those teams onto their kids. Again the Yankees and Mets fans greatly outnumber fans of the Dodgers and Giants but those teams still retain some fans in NY.
                          To answer your second question most fans of the NY NL teams did become fans of the Mets. Switching from a Dodger or Giant fan to a Yankee fan is sacreligious. Would be like a Red Sox fan becoming a Yankee fan to raise a modern equivelent.
                          unknown brooklyn cabbie " how are the brooks doin"
                          unknown fan "good they got three men on base"
                          unknown brooklyn cabbie "which one?"

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                          • #43
                            polo grounds

                            Originally posted by theAmazingMet
                            Read my above thread, don't assume everyone in NY takes the subway. There are no subways connecting LI, Conn, or Jersey (unless you count the path) to Manhattan. These fans would have to take either Metro North, LIRR, or Jersey Transit to either Grand Central, or Penn Station, then switch to the subway. This type of travel would take 1-2 hours depending on where you live. In addition many people who live in the outer boroughs, especially Staten Island, and Eastern Queens don't have subway access. As a matter of fact those people living on the east side of Manhattan don't have subway access either. People normally dont want to spend hours traveling to games.
                            Here is a good case in point. It could take a Mets fan living in Queens over an hour to get to Shea by subway. If they lived in say Belle Harbor they would have to take a shuttle train to Broad Channel (10 min.) From Broad Channel they would take the A train to Broadway-Junction in Brooklyn and transfer to the J train (30 min.) From Broadway Junction take the J to Jamaica (15-20 min.) From there take the F train to Roosevelt Ave. (25-30 min) Take the 7 train from Roosevelt Ave to Willets point (15 min) That makes a conservative estimate taking local trains in the same borough via subway to a total of 1:45 min. Not everyone who lives in NY takes the subway, especially those who live outside Manhattan. NYC is not just the island but 4 other boroughs where more people drive. You need ample parking to survive in todays world. That is why just as much consideration goes into parking lots, that goes into the actual construction of a new stadium.
                            I will say this again. if the yankees today still can play across the river at yankee stadium and draw as many fans as they do today, the giants or mets still could play at the polo grounds today. whether or not fans use the subway to go to yankee stadium i dont know that info.i have never liked shea stadium and will never like shea stadium. i cant wait to see the wrecking ball go at shea stadium, that will make up for the day in 1964 that they tore down the polo grounds.
                            LONG LIVE THE POLO GROUNDS 1891-1964
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/POLOGROUNDS1962

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by StanTheMan
                              I'm new here..... but am a bit of a Polo Ground nut. (Thoroughly dissapointed that when I took the subway from Grand Central to Yankee Stadium a year ago... I either could not see, or forgot to look, for the Polo Ground site....)



                              What were the Dodgers-Mets, and Giants-Mets games like once the Mets were formed, and those two teams came back to NY? Attendance? Crowd? Hatred or joy? Can't imagine much joy... or did the Giants Fans even go see the game? How could you not?????? Giants Mets at the Polo Grouds!!! Did the fans from Brooklyn make the trip to the PG?
                              Bryan in Indy
                              As far as the polo grounds site you cant miss it the next time you go to yankee stadium, its across the river from the ballpark you can see the polo grounds apartments.i was there in 1988 and saw the area and also took photos. i also went to brooklyn to see the ebbets field apartment in 1988.

                              As far as the dodgers and giants playing the mets at the polo grounds in 1962 and 1963 the mets drew very well when those teams came to the polo grounds.
                              Glad to see another polo grounds fan here. the polo grounds out of the three classic new york stadiums does not get the respect it should. P.S. i cant stand shea stadium.
                              LONG LIVE THE POLO GROUNDS 1891-1964
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/POLOGROUNDS1962

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I agree totally that Shea is a non-descrept ballpark whose only endearing quality is the apple in the tophat. The Wilpons are planning a new stadium which resembles the outside facade of Ebbets Field. Haven't seen what the inside will look like but wouldn't it be nice to have it resemble the Polo Grounds with a deep CF? This way the New York NL team will pay homage to the two original NL New York teams, like their uniforms do. Orange and interlocking NY for the NYG, and blue for the Dodgers. We won't mention why their home uni's have pinstripes though!
                                Coincidentally I've had a burning question that maybe someone here knows the answer to;
                                Was their any effort made by the SF Giants to block the Mets from using the interlocking NY on the caps due to a trademark, or other intellectual property argument?
                                unknown brooklyn cabbie " how are the brooks doin"
                                unknown fan "good they got three men on base"
                                unknown brooklyn cabbie "which one?"

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