Giants move was quiet

[tonypug]

If those owners only knew what the future would be in baseball economics:

Philadelphia A's to KC
Braves to Milwaukee
Giants to San Francisco
Senators to Minneapolis

I don't think any franchise shifts would have been made.

What I think should have happened is for a third major league to start that covered the South and West without stealing teams. If that didn't work out you could have a merger. For a time, the Pacific Coast League was given a unique classification of AAAA. In the PCL you had the Los Angeles Angels, Hollywood Stars, and San Francisco Seals (I don't know if there was a San Diego Padres at that time but they definitely preexisted)..

The old Pacific Coast League consisted of eight teams.They were: Hollywood Stars,Portland Beavers, Oakland Oaks, San Francisco Seals, Sacremento Salons, Los Angeles Angels,Seattle Raniers and San Diego Padres. The big problem was the lack of Stadiums with adequate seating capacities.The other problem with three major leagues, how to play the world series.It would have made things easier on a lot of cities.

[Brownie31]

Pcl

The old Pacific Coast League consisted of eight teams.They were: Hollywood Stars,Portland Beavers, Oakland Oaks, San Francisco Seals, Sacremento Salons, Los Angeles Angels,Seattle Raniers and San Diego Padres. The big problem was the lack of Stadiums with adequate seating capacities.The other problem with three major leagues, how to play the world series.It would have made things easier on a lot of cities.

Lefty O'Doul, longtime San Francisco Seals manager and 1932 NL batting champ (.368) as a Brooklyn Dodger, suggested the PCL as a third major league in 1946. Alas another missed opportunity! As to the World Series: whichever of the three pennant winners had the best winning percentage could draw a bye. The other two would have a playoff and meet the bye team in the World Series. Look at how many division playoffs you have now! A good case can be made that O'Doul is another Brooklyn Dodger slighted by the Hall of Fame. Brownie31

[EbtsFldGuy]

Any other owner with Stoneham's econcomic situation would have moved.

BUT an owner with money and/or political clout could have pressured NYC into amenities (including more cops outside the PG) and kept the Giants here.

Just look at Detroit, and the slum they played in for decades - but then, again, the Tigers were the only game in town.

[POLO GROUNDS 1957]

Detroit

Any other owner with Stoneham's econcomic situation would have moved.

BUT an owner with money and/or political clout could have pressured NYC into amenities (including more cops outside the PG) and kept the Giants here.

Just look at Detroit, and the slum they played in for decades - but then, again, the Tigers were the only game in town.

I live in detroit and the area around tiger stadium is not a slum.i never had any problems going to games at tiger stadium. if any place is a slum its the area around comerica park.

[BaseballHistoryNut]

Very different situations.

Brooklyn fans had been turning up in excellent numbers throughout the '50s, providing solid revenues for a team that most regarded as the standardbearer of their borough's identity. Then some tinhorn shyster backstabs his way into control and sells out the loyal fans for a few lousy extra bucks. No wonder they were peeved, and still are.

On the other hand, the Giants had been in the Stoneham family for many years. The '50s featured some of the most exciting pennant races even in that team's glorious history. Plus they had the most exciting and charismatic player in the game's history playing center field every day. But attendance figures were shamefully low. NYG fans today don't blame Horace for the move - he did what he had to do, fan attendance was his only source of income. If anyone's to blame, it's the people who only had to take a ten-minute subway ride to watch the greatest team in baseball, and didn't, because "oooo - that's a Bad Neighborhood!" They stole my team - not Horace.

I'm a lifelong Giant fan, but I'm of course aware of how BROOKLYN Dodger fans lived and died with that team, every year. And I thought of that when a law school classmate told me the following disgusting story a good many years ago now:

She said she and a friend were in L.A. when Dennis Martinez pitched his perfect game, and happened to go to the park that night. She's a lifelong Dodger fan and knows her baseball well. She was on the edge of her seat for the last two innings, as one would imagine. But do you know what she told me? She said that as usual, the LOS ANGELES Dodger "fans" were leaving the game in the seventh, eighth and ninth innings. Of a perfect game. Just getting up and walking out. Not even looking back.

I have pondered that story ever since, and two thoughts have come to mind:

(1) If I'd been the Dodgers' owner(s), I would have identified as many season ticket holders as possible who'd been among those walking out, and I would have forever erased them from the season ticket-holder list; and

(2) When the Dodgers' aging, but diehard, Brooklyn fans hear an outrageous story like that, even at this distant point in time, how must they feel?

Baseball History Nut

[DODGER DEB]

I'm a lifelong Giant fan, but I'm of course aware of how BROOKLYN Dodger fans lived and died with that team, every year. And I thought of that when a law school classmate told me the following disgusting story a good many years ago now:

She said she and a friend were in L.A. when Dennis Martinez pitched his perfect game, and happened to go to the park that night. She's a lifelong Dodger fan and knows her baseball well. She was on the edge of her seat for the last two innings, as one would imagine. But do you know what she told me? She said that as usual, the LOS ANGELES Dodger "fans" were leaving the game in the seventh, eighth and ninth innings. Of a perfect game. Just getting up and walking out. Not even looking back.

I have pondered that story ever since, and two thoughts have come to mind:

(1) If I'd been the Dodgers' owner(s), I would have identified as many season ticket holders as possible who'd been among those walking out, and I would have forever erased them from the season ticket-holder list; and

(2) When the Dodgers' aging, but diehard, Brooklyn fans hear an outrageous story like that, even at this distant point in time, how must they feel?

Baseball History Nut

No need to tell any of you about my BROOKLYN DODGER background; just check my Forum. I will, however, tell you, that I experienced that same situation in the ravine several times. The very first time it happened, I remember that I, and my friends, stood up and yelled..."and this is what they stole OUR Team for...to bring them out to this"?

This is only one part of the tragic story, "out there". I will be talking much more about what I witnessed in my upcoming book.

It made is sick! It still makes me sick when I think about all of it. h

c.

[Brownie31]

No need to tell any of you about my BROOKLYN DODGER background; just check my Forum. I will, however, tell you, that I experienced that same situation in the ravine several times. The very first time it happened, I remember that I, and my friends, stood up and yelled..."and this is what they stole OUR Team for...to bring them out to this"?

This is only one part of the tragic story, "out there". I will be talking much more about what I witnessed in my upcoming book.

It made is sick! It still makes me sick when I think about all of it. h

c.

Ode To Loyalty

Flatbush may have had fans who were loud and burly
But not a one left a ball game early

Out in LALA, where actor's agents are spinning
All are gone by the eighth inning

LALA's attitude is most assuredly third rate
While Brooklyn's been deprived since '58!

Brownie31

[mwiggins]

No need to tell any of you about my BROOKLYN DODGER background; just check my Forum. I will, however, tell you, that I experienced that same situation in the ravine several times. The very first time it happened, I remember that I, and my friends, stood up and yelled..."and this is what they stole OUR Team for...to bring them out to this"?

This is only one part of the tragic story, "out there". I will be talking much more about what I witnessed in my upcoming book.

It made is sick! It still makes me sick when I think about all of it. h

c.

One thing I've always wondered, during the first few years in LA, which feeling was stronger - your dislike for O'Malley and his LA Dodgers, or your love for the players who had been Brooklyn Dodgers? For example, were you cheering for Snider and Hodges and Podres in the '59 Series, even though they were playing for LA?

[DODGER DEB]

One thing I've always wondered, during the first few years in LA, which feeling was stronger - your dislike for O'Malley and his LA Dodgers, or your love for the players who had been Brooklyn Dodgers? For example, were you cheering for Snider and Hodges and Podres in the '59 Series, even though they were playing for LA?

First, please understand that OUR DODGERS, the real DODGERS, died on October 9, 1957. I have never, and would never, root for a team that not only was stolen from US for pure greed, but a group that also stole OUR NAME...and after all these years, continues to use it!

We were very close to OUR Players and always wished them well, no matter where they played. In 1958, we traveled to Philadelphia to see them play, and of course, we saw them in NY. As the years passed, most of OUR players either retired, or in a few cases, moved on, for a year or two, to other teams, like the METS, Pirates, Orioles, or Tigers etc.

c.

[D6+]

I understand attendence was going down, the last three years were,824,000.629.000 and 653,000. People said they wouldn't go because of the area, how come the Mets drew 922,000 and 1,080,000 their two years in the Polo Grounds? I found it strange when the Giants moved to SF they had a bunch of good young players Orlando Cepeda, Jim Davenport, Willie McCovey ready to play. Why not bring some of them up early to New York, it might have helped attendence and created more interest.

My guess is the Mets outdrew the NY Giants because of the novelty of National League Baseball being back in New York after not having an NL team in town the previous 4 seasons. It didn't even matter that the Mets were arguably the worst team in MLB history over a two year period and that the area the Polo Grounds was in wasn't the ideal place to visit. The hunger for National League baseball was the overriding factor in the equation.

[D6+]

What is easy to forget two decades later is that the Giants were all set to leave SF in about 1978 for Toronto. I recall watching the Channel 5 (in NYC) 10 o'clock news with Bill Jorgensen one Friday night in 1978 (maybe 79)when the lead was "The San Francisco Giants are no more." Only some last minute local efforts prevented that move.

Greenpeach has it right. Had the Giants gone to Shea, they would have thrived. In addition to the euphoria over getting out of the PG and its attendant dangers, people would have loved Shea, as the Mets fans did for several years. And yes, the quality of the young players the Giants had beginning in 1958 would have made that team a contender and keen draw in Shea - and a natural rival for the Yankees.

Horace Stoneham was honorable about his move, announcing it in August - unlike O'Malley, who milked every second of hope out of the adoring faithful in Brooklyn, waiting until October to announce his departure. Horace was a decent man, who was dealt a bad hand. Too bad he did not prosper, instead of that other fellow.

The San Francisco team also came very close to moving to the Tampa Bay area in 1992. If not for former NL President Bill White, the Tampa Bay Giants would likely have become a reality.

[tonypug]

My guess is the Mets outdrew the NY Giants because of the novelty of National League Baseball being back in New York after not having an NL team in town the previous 4 seasons. It didn't even matter that the Mets were arguably the worst team in MLB history over a two year period and that the area the Polo Grounds was in wasn't the ideal place to visit. The hunger for National League baseball was the overriding factor in the equation.

There was a hunger for National League baseball. The fan base was always there it just had to be full tapped. The area around the Polo Grounds didn't get any safer, yet people still came out. If it was truly an unsafe area. people would not have gone to see the Mets, hunger or no hunger.

[tonypug]

The San Francisco team also came very close to moving to the Tampa Bay area in 1992. If not for former NL President Bill White, the Tampa Bay Giants would likely have become a reality.

Peter O'Malley, not Bill White blocked the sale of the Giants to Tampa Bay. He made the it wouldn't be fair to the fans of San Francisco if they lost their team speech. Its funny his father never felt that way when he left Brooklyn.

[EbtsFldGuy]

There was a hunger for National League baseball. The fan base was always there it just had to be full tapped. The area around the Polo Grounds didn't get any safer, yet people still came out. If it was truly an unsafe area. people would not have gone to see the Mets, hunger or no hunger.

I agree about the hunger part, but not about the assessment of the area around the PG. It was no better in 1962 than it had been in 1957. Maybe NYC put more cops there on game day, but it was still a high crime area. Illustratively, several years after the Mets left, two NYC cops, Piagenti and Jones, were murdered by militants in the Polo Grounds Houses complex.

[tonypug]

I agree about the hunger part, but not about the assessment of the area around the PG. It was no better in 1962 than it had been in 1957. Maybe NYC put more cops there on game day, but it was still a high crime area. Illustratively, several years after the Mets left, two NYC cops, Piagenti and Jones, were murdered by militants in the Polo Grounds Houses complex.

I agree the area was no better or worse in 1957 and 1962. But the fans had a reason for going to the Polo Grounds again. Thanks for your support.