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10/3/51 attendance: how can this be right?

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  • 10/3/51 attendance: how can this be right?

    The official attendance is usually given as 34,320 in box scores, books, documentaries, etc.
    Assuming the Polo Grounds held about 55,000,
    I've seen countless pictures and film footage of that game from every angle imaginable and have yet to find any empty seats!

  • #2
    10-3-1951

    Originally posted by polo54
    The official attendance is usually given as 34,320 in box scores, books, documentaries, etc.
    Assuming the Polo Grounds held about 55,000,
    I've seen countless pictures and film footage of that game from every angle imaginable and have yet to find any empty seats!
    Hello the polo grounds did hold 55,000. i have read that the weather on that day was not good that probally afected the attendance. Donald
    LONG LIVE THE POLO GROUNDS 1891-1964
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/POLOGROUNDS1962

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    • #3
      The 34,000 number I believe is correct. It was an overcast day. I do not believe it rained prior to the game. They eventually turned the lights on during the game. Nonetheless, the crowd was disappointing. A 13 1/2 game lead dissipated and one game decides it all. Two heated rivals vying for the National League pennant. Maglie versus Newcombe a great matchup. Ralph Branca told me that he has met more people who have him they were there that day. Perhaps they were but some of them were disguised as empty seats.

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      • #4
        I have always thought that was very weak attendance for such an important game. It is a sad fact that many old NY baseball fans can't accept that their misty, idealized love affairs with their ball clubs did not begin until they said they were going to leave. You can curse me and insult me all you want, but I am right and that's what makes you even angrier. The Giants and Dodgers left from the arrogance of NY and the feeling that they were entitled to teams they supported from their living rooms.
        sigpic

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Shotgun Shuba
          I have always thought that was very weak attendance for such an important game. It is a sad fact that many old NY baseball fans can't accept that their misty, idealized love affairs with their ball clubs did not begin until they said they were going to leave. You can curse me and insult me all you want, but I am right and that's what makes you even angrier. The Giants and Dodgers left from the arrogance of NY and the feeling that they were entitled to teams they supported from their living rooms.
          Yes, Shotgun, you are right. You are right about everything. Curse you? Why would anybody curse you, Shotgun, when it is so obvious that you are right? Yes, it was the arrogance of the Giant and Dodger fans that caused their teams to leave. It was not O'Malley's greed or Stoneham's dipsomaniacal density; it was arrogance, the New York Giant fan's arrogance and the Brooklyn Dodger fan's arrogance. Why couldn't we see this simple truth before? Clearly, it takes a prophet to reveal life's obvious but simple truths, but now that Shotgun Shuba has arrived on the scene, we have our prophet. Now that I know the truth, I am never going to be angry again. In fact, as I write these words, I feel a deep serenity creeping into my bones, a profound and pervasive serenity that only great truths can confer. I can now accept what happened to the New York Giants and the Brooklyn Dodgers. It was a punishment for the fans' sins in an epic morality play that swept from the Atlantic to the Pacific. Verily we have sinned, and the gods have punished us for our arrogance by relocating our children into the promised lands of the saintly Franciscans and the blessed Angels. Let us give thanks to the powers that be for bestowing upon us (while we are still capable of reading) this remarkable seer, Saint Shuba, who has succeeded at last in bringing together the two coasts in what has to be called a Shotgun wedding.
          Last edited by donzblock; 05-03-2005, 06:52 AM.

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          • #6
            Then my work is done. Peace to you my child and especially the wisdom you so clearly lack.
            sigpic

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Shotgun Shuba
              Then my work is done. Peace to you my child and especially the wisdom you so clearly lack.
              Nay, sir, for it can no longer be said that wisdom is lacking if thy work be done. If thy work be done, then wisdom is now present; but if the wisdom is clearly still lacking, then, o great one, thou must remain and patiently continue thy great teachings until the great wisdom that is so clearly radiating from thine every pore doth illuminate thy pupils who have striveneth so mightily to keepeth up with thine august and saintly self. For verily, kind sir, how canst there be peace if there beith no wisdom?
              Last edited by donzblock; 05-03-2005, 02:41 AM.

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              • #8
                As I recall, in those days, there was always an "official attendance" and an "actual attendance"......the difference being that the "official attendance" was the "paid attendance", while the "actual attendance" included all the free tickets given out for that game.

                c.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Shotgun Shuba
                  I have always thought that was very weak attendance for such an important game. It is a sad fact that many old NY baseball fans can't accept that their misty, idealized love affairs with their ball clubs did not begin until they said they were going to leave. You can curse me and insult me all you want, but I am right and that's what makes you even angrier. The Giants and Dodgers left from the arrogance of NY and the feeling that they were entitled to teams they supported from their living rooms.
                  Saint or not, every time you open your mouth, you put your foot in it a little deeper.

                  And talk about arrogance! Where the hell does a kid of 30 – who was born AFTER the Dodgers left Brooklyn – come off telling those of us who DID live the experience exactly when our love affair with the team began?

                  Not only are you wrong, Mr. Shuba, you’re LOUD wrong!

                  More important, you’re out of your depth here, sonny. So instead of trying to palm off your half-baked theories about Brooklyn fans’ loyalties, you need to study your history.

                  And you might begin by reading many of the threads on the Brooklyn Forum, written by fans old enough to have actually experienced the Dodger era in Brooklyn and who actually DO know what they’re talking about.
                  Last edited by shlevine42; 05-02-2005, 05:03 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by donzblock
                    Nay, sir, for it can no longer be said that wisdom is lacking if thy work be done. If thy work be done, then wisdom is now present; but if the wisdom is clearly still lacking, then, o great one, thou must remain and patiently continue thy great teachings until the great wisdom that is so clearly radiating from thine every pore doth illuminate thy pupils who have striveneth so mightily to keepeth up with thine august and saintly self. For verily, kind sir, how canneth there be peace if there beith no wisdom?

                    Stop begging, "poet", I will not, nay, cannot return to the land of bitterness and venom. There will be no Return of the King. If you seek true knowledge you may seek me out.

                    "It is, the people say, the boastfulness of brigandage, but surely not the WAY."
                    Lao Tzu
                    sigpic

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                    • #11
                      Mr Levine, you take a strange delight in contradicting and challenging me. You are older than me, I admit that. Does the scholar of today have no right to examine and theorize on ancient Rome? Does a resident of Charleston in 1864 know more about the Civil War than a modern historian? True depth and understanding comes with time. You may spout hatred and insults, I will not battle you. I respect experience and do not wish to argue with you. I believe that pure emotion does not tell the whole story of the move, if you must cast me as monster to make you feel better that is your choice. I would think you would want people who love the Brooklyn Dodgers to not feel that every older Brooklyn fan is hostile. Your generation will not last forever and we will have to tell our children that there once was a Golden Era of baseball and the BROOKLYN Dodgers led the way. I offer you the Olive Branch and have full faith you are a mensh and we can get along.
                      sigpic

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Shotgun Shuba
                        I have always thought that was very weak attendance for such an important game. It is a sad fact that many old NY baseball fans can't accept that their misty, idealized love affairs with their ball clubs did not begin until they said they were going to leave. You can curse me and insult me all you want, but I am right and that's what makes you even angrier. The Giants and Dodgers left from the arrogance of NY and the feeling that they were entitled to teams they supported from their living rooms.


                        You certainly are entitled to your opinion, however, the love of the Giant fans and Dodger fans for their teams was real not contrived. The Giants and Dodgers left New York because Horace Stoneham and Walter O'Malley were attempting to maximize profits. They had that legal right as owners of their teams. They both wanted new ball parks. You should be aware both the Giants and Dodgers were televising their home games in New York. In fact, the Dodgers were also televising some select road games. Obviously, Messrs. Stoneham and O'Malley were making $$$ from the rights fees, which might have offset their claims of declining attendance. This is purely speculative given that no one other that Stoneham, O'Malley and their minions saw the contracts. They had no legal obligation to divulge their earnings other than to their shareholders.

                        They both were aware that with an anti trust exemption bestowed on baseball by the U. S. Supreme Court that they had legal precedent to move their franchises on their side. Philadelphia lost the A's, St. Louis the Browns and Boston the Braves all with a five year span. In fact, in 1957, the U. S. Supreme Court reaffirmed the Court's original ruling on the the anti-trust exemption by a 6-3 vote. Coinincidentally, that was the last year the Dodgers and Giants played in New York. The fans felt betrayed, which from an emotional standpoint they were. They were hardly arrogant unless love of their teams is considered arrogance. Giant fans as opposed to Dodger fans at least have the satisfaction that while O'Malley profited from the move Stoneham died a slow death at Candlestick Park.
                        Last edited by GIANT; 05-02-2005, 05:38 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Giant, thank you first of all for always acting with civility and respect. I think that many Giant fans loved their team, I don't question that. I think Harlem was a tough sell in the 50's and I do not think their actual fan base shrunk from 1947 to 1957. I do think a fan in Westport CT. would rather watch his Giants from home rather than schlep all the way to the city. That is my point and the all important FACT. No city can support three baseball teams. NY could not afford to build AT LEAST 2 ballparks. The Yankees clearly would have cried foul and then there is 3 ballparks. The ideal situation: Giants in Yonkers or Westchester, Yankees stay in Bronx, Dodgers in Rockaway, Roosevelt, Coney Island or Elmont. I think a combination ballpark and racetrack would have been a gold mine. I think NY ball fans were apathetic, I'm sorry. You could write libraries of books on why they left. There is no Darth Vader here guys, I'm sorry. It's way too complicated for that.
                          Last edited by Shotgun Shuba; 05-02-2005, 05:47 PM. Reason: poor grammar
                          sigpic

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                          • #14
                            Ny Giants

                            Originally posted by Shotgun Shuba
                            Giant, thank you first of all for always acting with civility and respect. I think that many Giant fans loved their team, I don't question that. I think Harlem was a tough sell in the 50's and I do not think their actual fan base shrunk from 1947 to 1957. I do think a fan in Westport CT. would rather watch his Giants from home rather than schlep all the way to the city. That is my point and the all important FACT. No city can support three baseball teams. NY could not afford to build AT LEAST 2 ballparks. The Yankees clearly would have cried foul and then there is 3 ballparks. The ideal situation: Giants in Yonkers or Westchester, Yankees stay in Bronx, Dodgers in Rockaway, Roosevelt, Coney Island or Elmont. I think a combination ballpark and racetrack would have been a goldmine. I think NY ball fans were apathetic, I'm sorry. You could write libraries of books on why they left. There is no Darth Vader here guys, I'm sorry. It's way too complicated for that.
                            Hello i still would have liked to have seen the new york giants stay at a renovated polo grounds. they could have renovated the ballpark like what happened to yankee stadium in the 1970,s.
                            LONG LIVE THE POLO GROUNDS 1891-1964
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/POLOGROUNDS1962

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Shotgun Shuba
                              Giant, thank you first of all for always acting with civility and respect. I think that many Giant fans loved their team, I don't question that. I think Harlem was a tough sell in the 50's and I do not think their actual fan base shrunk from 1947 to 1957. I do think a fan in Westport CT. would rather watch his Giants from home rather than schlep all the way to the city. That is my point and the all important FACT. No city can support three baseball teams. NY could not afford to build AT LEAST 2 ballparks. The Yankees clearly would have cried foul and then there is 3 ballparks. The ideal situation: Giants in Yonkers or Westchester, Yankees stay in Bronx, Dodgers in Rockaway, Roosevelt, Coney Island or Elmont. I think a combination ballpark and racetrack would have been a goldmine. I think NY ballfans were apathetic, I'm sorry. You could write libraries of books on why they left. There is no Darth Vader here guys, I'm sorry. It's way too complicated for that.
                              I think this is valid point. Television changed the game and the way it was presented. The fans living in the suburbs took advantage of the accessability of the games on television. Stoneham and O'Malley cried about declining attendance but they might have provided the mechanism for the decline by televising home games -for $$$.
                              Last edited by GIANT; 05-02-2005, 05:57 PM.

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