Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

10/3/51 attendance: how can this be right?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by GIANT
    I think this is valid point. Television changed the game and the way it was presented. The fans living in the suburbs took advantage of the accessability of the games on television. Stoneham and O'Malley cried about declining attendance but they might have provided the mechanism for the decline by televising home games -for $$$.

    That's a whole other can of worms. You would think that TV would be the ultimate promotion of your product. But, if I can get the product without getting mugged or having my window "washed" by some thug, I guess I will stay home. You cannot be a Luddite though and say, "we will not televise our games unless we sell out." The problem in NY was that the fans constantly had to come "in" from CT, LI, NJ, and Upstate. The centralized urban population of 1930 was not there. The move to SF was a disaster(maybe) for reasons others might speculate on. LA is 40 suburbs in search of a city and thus it thrived. O'Malley was not wrong and had Nassau County given him the farm He would have stayed(maybe). I don't know.
    sigpic

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Shotgun Shuba
      Mr Levine, you take a strange delight in contradicting and challenging me. You are older than me, I admit that. Does the scholar of today have no right to examine and theorize on ancient Rome? Does a resident of Charleston in 1864 know more about the Civil War than a modern historian? True depth and understanding comes with time. You may spout hatred and insults, I will not battle you. I respect experience and do not wish to argue with you. I believe that pure emotion does not tell the whole story of the move, if you must cast me as monster to make you feel better that is your choice. I would think you would want people who love the Brooklyn Dodgers to not feel that every older Brooklyn fan is hostile. Your generation will not last forever and we will have to tell our children that there once was a Golden Era of baseball and the BROOKLYN Dodgers led the way. I offer you the Olive Branch and have full faith you are a mensh and we can get along.
      I take delight in contradicting and challenging statements that I disagree with…statements that are offered up as “truths” by unqualified observers and without supporting evidence. Such challenges are not strange at all; they're what this Forum is all about.

      Scholars certainly have the right to theorize on past events, but you presume to have special insight into the minds and hearts of Brooklyn fans, and that, my friend, is beyond the scope of your scholarship.

      What you see as “hostility” is a reaction to the arrogance of your statements and intense disagreement with your presumptions, which I might be willing to consider if they weren’t bathed in the blinding glare of your own certainty.

      Comment


      • #18
        Not to beat a dead horse (for the umpteenth time,) but here goes:
        REGARDLESS OF ATTENDANCE OR ANYTHING ELSE...
        the Dodgers belong to Brooklyn, the Giants belong to Manhattan. Los Angeles
        never deserved the Dodgers; San Francisco never deserved the Giants.
        They were stolen from New York by greedy, evil scumbag owners + politicians.
        Okay--now that that's out of the way....

        Getting back to the point in question, there's no debating the fact that the Giants-Dodgers pennant race + the subsequent playoff series held the attention of New York like nothing else before or since.
        The city lived + breathed Dodgers-Giants even when there wasn't a pennant race. It was in the very air of the city.
        The epic, almost unbelievable drama + tension of the '51 playoff still resonates to this day. Any New York national league fan (which is almost redundant) then alive, could tell you exactly where he or she was when Thomson hit the HR. It was a life-event.
        But, even with the iffy weather, television/radio + the fact that it was a working day, I am surprised by the attendance. And I know that a lot of Brooklyn fans came to the Polo Grounds that day.

        Comment


        • #19
          Mr. Levine, I am sorry you feel that way. I have nothing more to say other than I pity you. I hope your real life is not full of such hatred and discord. Some people don't understand peacefulness and must search for conflict wherever they can find it. Their life can certainly be a lesson to the wise to avoid their ways and head toward true humanity. The olive branch is not always accepted and some are not enlightened enough to see what is right before their eyes. I seek to avoid their vitriol and yet they follow me. The first thing I am Certain of is that you are no gentleman and I will let you stew in your own juices. The second is that I will enjoy a Dodger game tonight in the comfort of a loving family and know I wil never be a person like you.
          sigpic

          Comment


          • #20
            Umm...back to the point, 20K empty seats at a game that is going to decide the pennant between the games most bitter rivals? I made a point in an earlier thread, that MLB was having some serious attendance problems, at least compared to what the teams were drawing right after WW2, through the remainder of the decade. And this just wasn't limited to the Dodgers or Giants, but virtually every MLB franchise's attendance at the gate was way off from where they had been a few years earlier. I'm sure there was still the great interest in bb, cause the NFL was really that big yet, the NHL was a cult sport, limited to only 4 US cities and the NBA was really a minor league at that time. But for some reason Americans were finding other things to do than go to the ballpark. :noidea
            It Might Be? It Could Be?? It Is!

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Shotgun Shuba
              Mr. Levine, I am sorry you feel that way. I have nothing more to say other than I pity you. I hope your real life is not full of such hatred and discord. Some people don't understand peacefulness and must search for conflict wherever they can find it. Their life can certainly be a lesson to the wise to avoid their ways and head toward true humanity. The olive branch is not always accepted and some are not enlightened enough to see what is right before their eyes. I seek to avoid their vitriol and yet they follow me. The first thing I am Certain of is that you are no gentleman and I will let you stew in your own juices. The second is that I will enjoy a Dodger game tonight in the comfort of a loving family and know I wil never be a person like you.
              Your latest post is almost as offensive as your earlier effort to admonish Dodger fans about living in the past.

              Instead of responding to my specific criticism of your posts – which were echoed by at least three other Forum members -- you deliver yet another sanctimonious lecture – this one about life and peacefulness and humanity.

              But I suppose it’s easier to do that than to acknowledge that your statements about the motives of Dodger fans were misguided and uninformed, and your conclusions lacked any credibility.

              And of course you probably still don’t understand why I won’t be joining you in enjoying a Dodger game.

              Back to the original question of this thread: I believe Dodger Deb has put her finger on a plausible explanation for the "low" attendance at the game in question. "Actual" attendance -- including free passes, service personnel, etc. -- was often significantly greater than "paid" attendance. And for such a crucial game, that gap was most certainly greater than usual.

              Comment


              • #22
                Yes, your reference to Dodger Deb's point about 'paid attendance' is what I was getting at (or at least implying) earlier. I just don't believe that there were 20,000 empty seats as was stated on ESPN 'Battle Lines,' which was an otherwise excellent program.
                Deb must be correct--at big events in those days, many complimentary
                tickets were given out. It certainly wasn't due to any lack of interest.
                Nothing could be further from the truth.
                Apathy is very "L.A.," not Brooklyn.

                Comment


                • #23
                  I have the Gordon McClendon broadcast of this game and he makes it sound like it was a full house. He also noted the overcast weather. Maybe the attendance was down because the game was played on a Wednesday afternoon.

                  It might have been like an old Cleveland Stadium crowd, the higher up seats that were obstructed may have had less fans sitting in them, especially in the lower deck.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Shotgun Shuba
                    Stop begging, "poet", I will not, nay, cannot return to the land of bitterness and venom. There will be no Return of the King. If you seek true knowledge you may seek me out.

                    "It is, the people say, the boastfulness of brigandage, but surely not the WAY."
                    Lao Tzu
                    In sooth, saintly sir, doth I seek true knowledge, and convinced am I that thou alone can supply it. Wouldst thou be kind enough to unearth the bedrock of thy assertion that the Giant and Dodger fans were puffed up with "arrogance" and "entitlement," deadly sins that compelled the good Sir Walter and the Philosopher King Horace to rebuke said fans by relocating the franchises? Though I feel in my bones that what thou hast said is true, feeling will not convinceth others when I commenceth my preaching. Only knowledge will doeth that, and for that precious commodity I humbly beseecheth thee.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I have explained this many times, like 5 posts ago, but here goes:

                      1) Suburbians were staying away from the city ballparks. Giant attendance was awful, Dodger attendance was good but could have been better in a new stadium.
                      2) Just watching games at home in those days did not support the club. There were no cable deals.
                      3) I think,(MY OPINION) both groups of fans felt that they could just wait for new ballparks and come back then. I did not poll every fan, nor have you.
                      4) Cities such as SF and LA were very motivated to steal teams, while NY dithered. So if you want to read my statements as city officials being arrogant, you may.
                      5) In my Russ Hodges book I have mentioned here before,Hodges relates the huge crowds that came for the Giant and Dodger homecoming games in 1962. He wonders why the teams were so much more popular as enemies rather than friends. This is a first hand account from a man who saw every Giant game so he must be reliable.

                      I always thought they announced crowds higher than they really are. Such as tickets purchased rather than full seats. Maybe it was different then.
                      As we have seen it was probably many factors that led to the poor attendance that day. Was Ebbetts Field sold out for their game(s)?, I don't know.
                      sigpic

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Shotgun Shuba
                        Stop begging, "poet", I will not, nay, cannot return to the land of bitterness and venom. There will be no Return of the King. If you seek true knowledge you may seek me out.

                        "It is, the people say, the boastfulness of brigandage, but surely not the WAY."
                        Lao Tzu
                        Baseball fans in Castro's Cuba
                        Interrupt their Missa Luba
                        When they hear the little popgun
                        Set off by the saintly Shuba.

                        Fans of every nation--goom-bah,
                        Bobo, Lobo, and Lumumba,
                        Piston fans in Detroit's Cobo--
                        Love to dance to Shuba's rhumba,

                        Love to squeeze the tiny tube o'
                        Toothpaste that is Shotgun Shubo.

                        (With apologies to John Updike.)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          For the record: Game 1 of the '51 playoff, on a Monday afternoon and sheduled on short notice, drew 30,707 at Ebbets Field -- nearly a full house.

                          Game 2 at the Polo Grounds drew 38,609. Rain interrupted play for 41 minutes in the sixth inning.

                          For Game 3, rain clouds from the previous day hung over the city, and almost certainly held the paid attendance to 34,320. As noted previously, there were undoubtedly thousands more who got in on free passes to boost the total attendance closer to the Polo Grounds' capacity.

                          And as anyone who was in New York that day can attest, apathy and complacency were nowhere to be found.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by shlevine42
                            For the record: Game 1 of the '51 playoff, on a Monday afternoon and sheduled on short notice, drew 30,707 at Ebbets Field -- nearly a full house.

                            Game 2 at the Polo Grounds drew 38,609. Rain interrupted play for 41 minutes in the sixth inning.

                            For Game 3, rain clouds from the previous day hung over the city, and almost certainly held the paid attendance to 34,320. As noted previously, there were undoubtedly thousands more who got in on free passes to boost the total attendance closer to the Polo Grounds' capacity.

                            And as anyone who was in New York that day can attest, apathy and complacency were nowhere to be found.


                            I do NOT remember seeing a photo of any of these games where the ballpark was not FULL. Granted there might have been a few empty seats, but not to the naked eye of the camera. Photos would prove my point.

                            NYC...and BROOKLYN was brimming with excitement for those three games. All eyes and ears were focused on the outcome. For someone, who was not there, to claim that apathy and complacency were all around us, clearly shows that he does NOT know anything about the BROOKLYN DODGER FAN, the NY GIANT FAN....or for that matter that time and place in NYC Baseball history. It's just that simple!

                            c.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Shouldn't Shotgun be on the Dodger site. He sure has a lot of opinions.

                              It does seem that there were few seats to be had that day. Who caught that HR anyway? Is the ball in the Hall o' Fame?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                All the pictures I've seen make it look like a pretty full house.


                                But in reality there were only a couple hundred people there.

                                And one photographer. See, what happened was the photographer kept moving people around wherever he was going to point his camera, so the PG would look sold out. This was part of a plot between Horace and O'Malley to make people think tickets for the subsequent WS would be unobtainable too, so they wouldn't even try to buy any, thereby allowing the two plotters to move the teams.

                                The reason there were only a couple hundred people there was that Horace got drunk and ordered the ticket-takers to only admit fans named "Joe", "Elmer", "Blanche", or "Wanda".

                                A guy told me this once, so it must be true.
                                Last edited by westsidegrounds; 05-03-2005, 03:01 PM.

                                Comment

                                Ad Widget

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X