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10/3/51 attendance: how can this be right?

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  • JamesWest
    replied
    [QUOTE=mandrake]

    I don't have the attendance on that game, but it was held on Oct 4, 1948. QUOTE]

    The attendance was 33,957. Not bad for an unscheduled Monday afternoon game.
    Last edited by JamesWest; 12-20-2006, 09:51 PM.

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  • mandrake
    replied
    Originally posted by Rome Colonel
    1959 Game One at Milwaukee - 18,297
    1959 Game Two at Los Angeles - 36,528

    game 1, Candlestick Park, won by SF, drew 33K, about 10K under capacity

    game 2, Dodger Stadium, won by LA, drew 25K, almost 30K EMPTY seats

    game 3, Dodger Stadium, won by SF, drew 44K, better but still 10K empty seats

    1946 Game One at St Louis - 26,012
    1946 Game Two at Brooklyn - 31,437
    Great info ! I too have attended some memorable games including 1986 WS game 6 and I have framed my stub!!! I have personally met hundreds of thousands who claim they were there too (HA)

    As for St Louis fans, yes they are incredibly loyal. And they draw well now.
    But look at the 1946 playoff above. Better yet, look at the 1944 WS that was an All St Louis affair for the only time. It was a flop, and was outdrawn by the LITTLE WS in Baltimore by a wide margin. That was the main reason that the Browns moved EAST(...most relocations had traditionaly been west.)

    All of the playoffs relied on walk up sales on day of game (1946, 1951, 1962)
    Boston nearly had a 1948 city series, but the Red Sox lost a one game playoff to the Indians 8-3. I don't have the attendance on that game, but it was held on Oct 4, 1948. When a team was forced to play a playoff, the team did not get a day off. When the Giants beat the Dodgers in '51, they were worn out and had to play the Yankees the next afternoon.

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  • EbtsFldGuy
    replied
    Originally posted by donzblock
    Yes, Shotgun, you are right. You are right about everything. Curse you? Why would anybody curse you, Shotgun, when it is so obvious that you are right? Yes, it was the arrogance of the Giant and Dodger fans that caused their teams to leave. It was not O'Malley's greed or Stoneham's dipsomaniacal density; it was arrogance, the New York Giant fan's arrogance and the Brooklyn Dodger fan's arrogance. Why couldn't we see this simple truth before? Clearly, it takes a prophet to reveal life's obvious but simple truths, but now that Shotgun Shuba has arrived on the scene, we have our prophet. Now that I know the truth, I am never going to be angry again. In fact, as I write these words, I feel a deep serenity creeping into my bones, a profound and pervasive serenity that only great truths can confer. I can now accept what happened to the New York Giants and the Brooklyn Dodgers. It was a punishment for the fans' sins in an epic morality play that swept from the Atlantic to the Pacific. Verily we have sinned, and the gods have punished us for our arrogance by relocating our children into the promised lands of the saintly Franciscans and the blessed Angels. Let us give thanks to the powers that be for bestowing upon us (while we are still capable of reading) this remarkable seer, Saint Shuba, who has succeeded at last in bringing together the two coasts in what has to be called a Shotgun wedding.
    And some thought only the Pope had infallibility.
    Last edited by EbtsFldGuy; 10-31-2006, 05:51 PM.

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  • rcl986@aol.com
    replied
    Originally posted by [email protected]
    As for the "work ethic" excuse proferred for the low turnout...lame. Come on, you mean to tell me that barely 10, 000 people couldn't show up to support their team at what was arguably the biggest game in their history?

    Yeah........................that's exactly what I'm telling you. Also, judging from the fan reaction at the end of the game, I highly doubt that most of the fans at the game were Dodger fans as you seem to think. Having watched the actual TV broadcast of that game LIVE I can assure you that the vast majority of fans at the PG that day were rooting for the Giants. Thats not to say that the Dodgers didn't have a large contingent of supporters in attendance BUT they were not in the majority.
    Last edited by [email protected]; 10-31-2006, 05:35 AM.

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  • GMONEY
    replied
    Possible Attendance Answer?

    Originally posted by POLO GROUNDS 1957
    There is a new book out on this great 1951 pennant race between brooklyn and the giants called

    THE ECHOING GREEN by Joshua Prager
    ISBN 0-375-42154-8
    it has great photos and i help out with Mr Prager with his book. i am also in the book. this book is one that every baseball fan should read. its out today in your local book stores.
    Just finished reading reading this fascinating book. Pages 193-194 might answer the attendance questions. "The previous game (Game #1 at the PG's) had not sold out either. The Daily News and the NY Times putting forth the best guess as to why. "Assumed Sell-Out Cuts Size of Crowd" read a headline. Strangely this seems plausible. On September 28th, the Giants announced that they would accept no more applications for World Series Tickets and the next day, a headline in the New York Herald Tribune had screamed:"Giants have no tickets!! Series Oversubscribed." The fans, it seems, assumed the playoff games were sold out as well." Maybe the headlines were read quickly? It doesn't say, playoff games, but maybe many assumed. Thanks to Joshua Prager's book for the quotes.

    Maybe the credo is true."Don't believe everything you read"

    Other tidbits:
    -September 27th, coin flip was held and the Dodgers chose to host 1st game while Giants would host next two at the PG's. By Bums chosing to host 1st game, that gave Giants chance to host next two.
    -September 28th was a Friday and the teams were tied at that point in the standings.
    -September 30th season ends in tie.
    -October 1st, 1st Giant-Dodgers playoff game, Giants win 3-1
    -October 2nd, Bums win
    -October 3rd, Giants win series
    GMONEY
    Last edited by GMONEY; 10-30-2006, 12:13 AM.

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  • Rome Colonel
    replied
    Haven't time today to draw any conclusions, only enough to look up the numbers for the 1959 and 1946 playoff games:

    1959 Game One at Milwaukee - 18,297
    1959 Game Two at Los Angeles - 36,528

    Both were day games (Monday, Tuesday) and my recollection is that the weather in Milwaukee was not the best. When the team moved to Atlanta in 1966 some people said that the attendance for the playoff game was the first indication that the Braves' long honeymoon with Milwaukee was over.

    1946 Game One at St Louis - 26,012
    1946 Game Two at Brooklyn - 31,437

    These were played Tuesday and Thursday; presumably day games.

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  • 64Cards
    replied
    Just for the hell of it, I checked the attendance figures for the 1962 NL playoffs, almost an identical situation as in 51, Giants came from behind to force a best of 3 playoff, except the franchises were now located on the left coast, playing in new ballparks. here's the numbers:

    game 1, Candlestick Park, won by SF, drew 33K, about 10K under capacity

    game 2, Dodger Stadium, won by LA, drew 25K, almost 30K EMPTY seats

    game 3, Dodger Stadium, won by SF, drew 44K, better but still 10K empty seats

    Draw your own conclusions.

    Leave a comment:


  • StanTheMan
    replied
    Originally posted by Gotham
    Some great baseball town, not sold out for the NLCS? Disgraceful. You could fill Shea or The Stadium 3 times over for a game of that magnitude.
    I was in line for World Series tickets a few years ago, with an estimated 75,000 people, so St. Louis could also sell out any stadium on earth (except maybe the Maracana stadium in Brazil) several times over as well.

    That's pretty idiotic, Gotham.... Of course the game in 85 was sold out.

    People outside the park without tickets, who walked in when the gates were opened in about the 7th ot 8th inning, have to to go Standing Room areas. This has been the norm for tens of thousands of baseball games in the 20 century. (In case you don't know when the 20th century was, it was 1901 to 2000). Your beloved Yankees USED to do the same thing, as did the Mets.

    Are you that shortsided, or lack baseball knowledge of anything outside the 5 boroughs or from before Derek Jeter?

    I have slept on the sidewalk outside Busch Stadium three different times for World Series tickets. My father has done so six different times. All postseason games are sold out in St. Louis..... the city which THE PLAYERS IN MLB baseball voted as having THE BEST FANS IN BASEBALL....

    Hey, I am biased towards my team and my hometown, as you obviously are. I'll take the players word for it. Cards fans are the best in baseball.

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  • rcl986@aol.com
    replied
    As for the "work ethic" excuse proferred for the low turnout...lame. Come on, you mean to tell me that barely 10, 000 people couldn't show up to support their team at what was arguably the biggest game in their history?

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  • Rome Colonel
    replied
    Originally posted by The Real McCoy
    My only other thought is that October 3, 1951 might have been the start of a Jewish holiday.
    Apparently Rosh Hashanah began on the evening of 9/30/51. I say "apparently" because I only found an anecdotal reference on-line; I could not find a table of dates. Since that holiday lasts two days it would have been over before 10/3. I think there are 10 days from the start of Rosh Hashanah to Yom Kippur, so that holiday would have been 10/9. Hopefully someone who's Jewish can confirm this.

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  • polo54
    replied
    A couple of years ago I listened to a radio broadcast of the game. The announcer (I think it was the Mutual Network) commented that the Dodger fans comprised some 25,000 and, being Dodger fans, were far louder
    throughout the game (of course, that would change.)

    So Giants fans were certainly in the minority.
    Brooklyn fans were known for following their club for big away games: e.g., old Shibe Park was filled with Brooklynites for crucial '49 and '51 pennant race
    matches. They would often outnumber Giants fans at the Polo Grounds, and Yankee fans at the Stadium for World Series games.

    This is common in Europe for big soccer matches, where tens of thousands of fans will travel across the continent to support their team but practically unheard of in American sports. Dodger fans were something else.

    As for the "work ethic" excuse proferred for the low turnout...lame. Come on, you mean to tell me that barely 10, 000 people couldn't show up to support their team at what was arguably the biggest game in their history?

    Just a couple of footnotes:
    the '51 Series PG attendance figures did include a lot of Yankee fans.
    One reason dark lord O'Malley cited for needing a bigger ballpark was the ticket requests the Dodgers had to return in all those World series. Club officials estimated that they sent back 100, 000 requests per game (!) at Ebbetts Field. Source is Red Barber and the old Redhead woulda know'd.
    Amazin'!

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  • The Real McCoy
    replied
    Originally posted by donzblock
    Maybe only 19,000. That day was a school day.
    Another element is the fact that attendance figures in those days were turnstile counts. Not too many corporate season tix were sold. Today, the attendance figures reflect tickets sold (on a single game and season basis) whether there are fannies in the seats or not. I've been in stadiums where attendance is annouced at 50M, but it's obvious that about 20M came dressed as empty seats.

    That said, 19M seems a bit on the low side. My only other thought is that October 3, 1951 might have been the start of a Jewish holiday. As a lapsed altar boy, I'm not in much of a position to address the question and ask for help from my friend, shlevine.

    Leave a comment:


  • DODGER DEB
    replied
    Originally posted by POLO GROUNDS 1957
    There is a new book out on this great 1951 pennant race between brooklyn and the giants called

    THE ECHOING GREEN by Joshua Prager
    ISBN 0-375-42154-8
    it has great photos and i help out with Mr Prager with his book. i am also in the book. this book is one that every baseball fan should read. its out today in your local book stores.
    If anyone is interested in reading it, the NY Times reviewed this new book last Sunday....

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/08/bo...ew&oref=slogin

    c.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rome Colonel
    replied
    The Giants' best crowd in 1951 was for a Memorial Day double header against the Braves (46,490). On four other dates, including the second game of the playoff, they drew over 34,320, all against the Dodgers.

    In their final regular season series (against the Braves, Saturday-Monday) the Giants drew a total attendance of only 35,758. This would seem to indicate that the low attendance for the final playoff game really wasn't that much of a fluke.

    I was never in the Polo Grounds but I assume that there were many seats with obstructed views or situated more than 450 feet from home plate. Because of such limitations the realistic seating capacity probably was below 50,000 and possibly below 45,000.

    During their last two World Series the Giants drew as follows:

    51-3: 52,035
    51-4: 49,010
    51-5: 47,530
    54-1: 52,751
    54-2: 49,099

    Clearly it was very hard to sell the last 10,000 seats under the most ideal circumstances. Figure in threatening weather and a Wednesday afternoon and you can understand why they didn't sell the next 10,000 on 10/3/51.

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  • POLO GROUNDS 1957
    replied
    THE ECHOING GREEN new BOOK

    There is a new book out on this great 1951 pennant race between brooklyn and the giants called

    THE ECHOING GREEN by Joshua Prager
    ISBN 0-375-42154-8
    it has great photos and i help out with Mr Prager with his book. i am also in the book. this book is one that every baseball fan should read. its out today in your local book stores.

    Leave a comment:

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