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Philadelphia-An American League town?

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  • #16
    All the what-ifs of the time fall away: Topping and Webb were going to ensure that the Athletics were A) sold to Arnold Johnson (who owned Yankee Stadium, by the way), and B) moved to Kansas City. No matter what.

    Bad financial decisions by the Mack family led them to this precipice.

    I think that if the Carpenters had stepped up and bought the Athletics from the Mack family at any given time in the late '40s or early '50s, there would've been little difference: the grumbling, bumbling style of the Macks would've been replaced by the amiable bumbling of Bob Carpenter. There wouldn't have been any pennants either...

    And, yes, the Phillies might've moved...and someone else might've been subjected to Jim Fregosi bringing in Kim Batiste for defensive purposes

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    • #17
      Originally posted by PlayJay View Post
      All the what-ifs of the time fall away: Topping and Webb were going to ensure that the Athletics were A) sold to Arnold Johnson (who owned Yankee Stadium, by the way), and B) moved to Kansas City. No matter what.

      Bad financial decisions by the Mack family led them to this precipice.

      I think that if the Carpenters had stepped up and bought the Athletics from the Mack family at any given time in the late '40s or early '50s, there would've been little difference: the grumbling, bumbling style of the Macks would've been replaced by the amiable bumbling of Bob Carpenter. There wouldn't have been any pennants either...

      And, yes, the Phillies might've moved...and someone else might've been subjected to Jim Fregosi bringing in Kim Batiste for defensive purposes
      Yes, the Yankee owners were instrumental in being sold to Arnold L. Johnson. Afterall, Kansas City had been a Yankee AAA farm team. They had the connections. The Yankees even took out the lease for Municipal Stadium through 3rd party transactions because Johnson couldn't afford it.

      The problem the Macks' had was that they wanted an investor who would provide in influx of money but allow them to continue to run the A's. The A's were Connie's legacy. They were very cautious about who they brought in because they didn't want to get squeezed out. Finally, the AL exasperated with the Mack's constant delays, took matters into their own hands rather secretively, selling out the A's from under the Mack family.

      The Carpenter's DuPont money buying into the Phillies was the death knoll for the A's in Philly. With that money behind them the Phillies were able to build toward what became the Whiz Kids. The Mack's couldn't even dream to be able to compete with the Carpenter's. It was simply a matter of time until they left Philly.

      Yankees Fan Since 1957

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      • #18
        That's the case with St. Louis-if so-and-so hadn't bought the team, they would have moved and the city would be an AL town. With StL, it was Budwieser, with Philadelphia, it was Bob Carpenter. In both cases, the teams purchased were the NL teams, whose new owners poured money into them-money that Bill Veeck and Connie Mack didn't have. As a resualt, the AL teams moved, and the NL dominated the cities.
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        • #19
          Although, yes, Philadelphia was an American League town, let's not forget that the A's drew about 900 to their final game. The rot had set in. And, as others have noted, the team was going to KC no matter what--the Yankees wanted to dump that stadium.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by yanks0714 View Post

            The problem the Macks' had was that they wanted an investor who would provide in influx of money but allow them to continue to run the A's. The A's were Connie's legacy. They were very cautious about who they brought in because they didn't want to get squeezed out. Finally, the AL exasperated with the Mack's constant delays, took matters into their own hands rather secretively, selling out the A's from under the Mack family.

            .
            Another big problem that the Macks' had was in-fighting within the family. Connie Mack's sons with his first wife, Roy and Earle, couldn't get along or do business with Connie Mack's second wife and their half-brother Connie Mack Jr. If these two factions hadn't been trying to buy each other out, they may have have been able to hold onto the Athletics.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Bottom Of The Fifth View Post
              Although, yes, Philadelphia was an American League town, let's not forget that the A's drew about 900 to their final game. The rot had set in. And, as others have noted, the team was going to KC no matter what--the Yankees wanted to dump that stadium.
              But this was in a time when regualr "crowds" of 2,500 were commonplace at virtually all ballparks. "Youngsters" accustomed to today's draws would be shocked to see what even the Yankees drew at certain times of their history.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by donzblock View Post
                Unfortunately, there were never rumors of the Phillies moving anywhere. (Or have I forgotten them?) If any franchise deserved to be moved and should have been moved, it was the Phillies. The Athletics should have stayed. The Phillies should have been relocated to Los Angeles. The worst franchise in the history of professional sports was tailor made for the deadest and least knowledgeable fans in the history of major league baseball. The Phillies would have continued to stink up the league, the LA fans would have continued to follow them in the same way that vampires follow blood, the Philadelphia fans would have been relieved of the horror of being in the vicinity of the Phillies, and the Athletics would have eventually thrived in Philly. Ed Wade belongs in LA. Billy Beane would have been fully appreciated in Philly. Things rarely work out.
                You don't...uh...train pitbulls to fight, do you?

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Aa3rt View Post
                  The St. Louis Browns played their last game on Sept. 27, 1953. Two days later (9/29/53) the Browns were sold to a Baltimore syndicate headed by Baltimore mayor Tom D'Alesandro for $ 2.475 million dollars. The American League approved the sale and the move-without Bill Veeck.
                  The AL was trying to rid themselves of Veeck - he had just tried to move the Browns himself (back to Milwaukee), but they shot him down.

                  It was clear that the Browns were leaving St. Louis, but equally clear that the League wouldn't let Veeck take them anywhere.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by johncap View Post
                    But this was in a time when regualr "crowds" of 2,500 were commonplace at virtually all ballparks. "Youngsters" accustomed to today's draws would be shocked to see what even the Yankees drew at certain times of their history.
                    Actually, the MLB average for that period was 10,000-15,000 per game (http://pages.istar.ca/~mbein/Baseball/MLATT.JPG), so 900 is still pretty bad.

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                    • #25
                      The timing may have been a little off, but I agree that the St Louis Browns should have moved to Kansas City, and the A's (if they had to move) should have gone to Baltimore. This way the fans of both teams could have kept some ties to the team. They would be able to sometimes travel to see their teams, always listen to the team on the radio, and probably watch them on TV. I know that the Royals and Cardinals are all over Missouri and surrounding states (KS,AR,OK,NE, etc). I recall going to a Royals vs Orioles game back in 1983 where there was a huge contingent of the "St Louis Browns" fan club sitting in the LF bleachers. Even when they won the '85 series, Royals Stadium was loaded with Cardinal fans. At least the Browns could have had some of their original fans.

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                      • #26
                        Here's some logic:

                        By 1953, given the atrocious lack of success in the front office, and on the field, as well as the legendary success of the club that shared the ballpark with them, mostly in the years when the club was run by a legendary general manager who first left the Browns under a cloud, I can't imagine that same would've had any kind of devoted fan base that would've cared. They certainly couldn't be blamed for not caring.

                        I can't believe the Phillies survived...

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                        • #27
                          But that's exactly what they *don't* want: somebody eating in to Gussie Busch's and Bob Carpenter's territory. Greedy MLB *wants* the fan to feel disenfranchised. You are supposed to support the team you're told, shut up and buy more souvenirs. Remember the fan comes last. Once they know they have you hooked, which MLB pretty much knew by 1950.

                          (whew. I feel like I'm catching donzblock flu! )

                          Originally posted by mandrake View Post
                          The timing may have been a little off, but I agree that the St Louis Browns should have moved to Kansas City, and the A's (if they had to move) should have gone to Baltimore. This way the fans of both teams could have kept some ties to the team. They would be able to sometimes travel to see their teams, always listen to the team on the radio, and probably watch them on TV. I know that the Royals and Cardinals are all over Missouri and surrounding states (KS,AR,OK,NE, etc). I recall going to a Royals vs Orioles game back in 1983 where there was a huge contingent of the "St Louis Browns" fan club sitting in the LF bleachers. Even when they won the '85 series, Royals Stadium was loaded with Cardinal fans. At least the Browns could have had some of their original fans.

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                          • #28
                            Blame Bucky Harris?

                            Maybe Bucky Harris unwittingly sealed the A's fate. In 1943, Willam Cox bought the Phils and hired Harris as manager. Harris had the Phils, losers of 100 plus games the previous 5 seasons, just 8 games sunder .500 in August when the meddling Cox canned him. A peeved Harris mentioned to a sportswriter after he was fired that Cox bet on Phils games. Commisioner Landis promptly barred Cox from baseball forever, paving the way for Carpenter to buy the Phillies.

                            Now, what if, Harris never opened his mouth about Cox's betting? It's conceivable that Cox would have continued to be the owner for a couple of more years before his wagering habits came to light. By then, maybe Carpenter would not have been interested in buying the Phils and the Phils, likely floundering under Cox, would have had to relocate. With the Phils gone, the AL would have found someone who would have kept the A's in Philly.

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                            • #29
                              I believe that Baltimore was looking at either the Browns or the A's because both had been drawing so poorly.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Steve Jeltz View Post
                                Maybe Bucky Harris unwittingly sealed the A's fate. In 1943, Willam Cox bought the Phils and hired Harris as manager. Harris had the Phils, losers of 100 plus games the previous 5 seasons, just 8 games sunder .500 in August when the meddling Cox canned him. A peeved Harris mentioned to a sportswriter after he was fired that Cox bet on Phils games. Commisioner Landis promptly barred Cox from baseball forever, paving the way for Carpenter to buy the Phillies.

                                Now, what if, Harris never opened his mouth about Cox's betting? It's conceivable that Cox would have continued to be the owner for a couple of more years before his wagering habits came to light. By then, maybe Carpenter would not have been interested in buying the Phils and the Phils, likely floundering under Cox, would have had to relocate. With the Phils gone, the AL would have found someone who would have kept the A's in Philly.
                                I gotta say this is something I wont forget and it probaly is true. This was a good thread. Made my top 10 list for bbf threads.
                                "(Shoeless Joe Jackson's fall from grace is one of the real tragedies of baseball. I always thought he was more sinned against than sinning." -- Connie Mack

                                "I have the ultimate respect for Whitesox fans. They were as miserable as the Cubs and Redsox fans ever were but always had the good decency to keep it to themselves. And when they finally won the World Series, they celebrated without annoying every other fan in the country."--Jim Caple, ESPN (Jan. 12, 2011)

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